RWDVM question

[Milbrose]

I went to your page and read your vaccine protocal that you use for your hospital.

I have a couple questions and thoughts.

first: (mind how I write, it is how I organize my thoughts)
bordatella, you write that it almost never resolves by itself, yet I recently have had my entire household come down with this (we have show dogs so they are often exposed) and they all resolved on their own. My vet was reluctant to treat them stating that bordatella was like getting a cold. I was told that I could give them childrens robitussin and watch them for problems. I was told that bordatella is generally only a problem for very young, very old and immune supressed dogs. Is this true?????
I also know that many other dog show folks do not vaccinate either intra-nasally or other for bordatella as it often doesn't prevent the strains that are around, is this not the case?

second: Lyme..... I live in a heavy tick area and recently had a dog come up positive for lyme, I have never vaccinated because the general concensus of opinion amongst other breeders and show people is that the risks associated with the vaccine are greater than the risk of the lyme itself and that as a general rule the lyme responds easilly to doxycycline if caught early. I would be interested in hearing your take on this. The lyme is of significant concern to me as historically I have recommended that my puppy people do NOT vaccinate for this pathogen.

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on these two things if you don't mind.

s

[RWDVM]

I am glad that you raised these issue as they are very good topics. First let me address the bordatella issue. There is infact a big difference between a dog getting bordatella and a person getting a cold. Bordatella bronchispetica is the same bacteria that cause the dreaded whooping cough of old in people (however, please don't be alarmed, as there is no cross species contamination from dog to people. Before the advent of antibiotics, people sometimes died from whooping cough.

The common cold, on the other hand, is caused by a rhino virus that causes a mild to moderate upper respriatory infection that has to run its course, as antibiotics have no effect on viruses.

What would be more akin to the human common cold in the canine world would be parainfluenza virus. This disease, like the common cold in people is mild to moderate at worst in most cases, and will run its course generally without complications. It is this disease that your dogs likely had, not kennel cough, as true kennel cough (infection with bordatella bronchiseptica) is a notoriously stubborn organism. I have seen many cases of resistant kennel cough and kennel cough induced pneumonia to support this postulate.

With regard to Lyme disease, this is one of my favorite sunject, because I practiced in the Lyme disease capitol of the world for three years: the north shore of Long Island. There, I treated an average of 4 new cases of Lyme disease per month.

Let me xplain why it is wrong to not vaccinate dogs for Lyme disease in Lyme prone areas. Yes it is true that the disease responds very well to tetracyclines, BUT it makes dogs EXTREMELY SICK, with severe muscle and joint pain, anorexia and dehydration, and fevers commonly 105 F and higher. Also, it requires 5 weeks of treatment which is tough on the dog's body and on your wallet. Finally, Lyme disease has the potential to cause a form of kidney failure called glomerulonephropathy.

With regard to the Lyme vaccine, since in certain areas of the north shore a dog was virtually guaranteed to get it without the vaccine despite using Frontline, I gave alot of Lyme vaccines in the three years I practiced there; and didn't once see a single vaccine associated complication. Complications associated with Lyme disease i unfortunately saw all too commonly. If you live in a Lyme prone area, do yourself and your dog a favor and vaccinate for Lyme.

However, be careful to not ignore tick prevention with Frontline, just because the dog has a vaccine. The vaccine is not 100% effective. The best way to effectively prevent Lyme disease is with yearly vaccine AND monthly Frontline.

Milbrose, thank you for taking the time to visit my site and raising good questions. rw

[dlaura]

I am so glad to hear your thoughts on the lyme vaccination theory. Also glad Milbrose brought it up as my Golden is due for hers. When the vet first offered a shot that Amber should get I asked why I wouldn't do it? My opinion was it was much easier to vaccinate then put my dog any unneccessary illness that could be avoided with a simple shot. My vet said basically the same as you did Dr. Welton and we went ahead. Amber had not problem with the vaccination and I had no worries about lyme disease. Guess I'd better get on the phone and make her appointment.

[Milbrose]

I am still hearing of many dogs with vaccine related illness. My understanding is that once a dog has vaccine related illness that it does not respond to treatment. If the vaccine is not 100% effective and your dog still risks getting lyme and the vaccine itself can cause a lyme related syndrome that can be as damaging as the lyme itself then how do I justify that?

My girl just went through two months of doxycycline..... due to a positive snap test when she had her heartworm check. I am going back and forth of the vaccine issue. In my mind it doesn't matter how rare the lyme vaccine syndrome is if it is your dog that gets it.

Most of the breeders and show folks in this area..... Mass. NH have chosen not to vaccinate.....
but I need to have way more information other than "you should" ......
I know that active lyme can cause sickness (shoot I have had lyme myself).... I also know that the lyme can be dormant and the snap test only shows exposure to the pathogen and not disease itself. I also know that once a dog is vaccinated for lyme the tests to determine if a dog indeed gets lyme anyway are much more expensive and the average vet doesn't have the ability to do these tests and they must be sent out.

This is a very difficult decision to make with regard to what to recommend to my puppy folks..... right now I an tneding toward saying no to the vaccine..... they can use frontline if they like although frontline only kills ticks after 48 hours and the disease transmission can occur after 24 hours so even with the frontline the dog can still contract lyme.

this is a tough call.
s

[RWDVM]

I am not aware of any vaccine induce Lyme syndrome, have not seen any Lyme vaccine complications after having administered thousands of vaccines, nor is there any mention of this phenomena in any veterinary medical literature pretaining to Lyme disease. I will assure you, that your dog's odds of contracting Lyme disease in a Lyme prone area are INFINATELY greater than any vaccine complication, let alone this mystery syndrome that I have yet to hear any mention of in the literature, from colleagues, or at any veterinary medical conference; nor have I seen any evidence of in four years of practice (including 3 years in the most Lyme prone area in the world). And a little FYI, there is no vaccine on the planet that is 100%, not even rabies. I brought up the Lyme vaccine not being 100% because I think that it is foolish to tempt fate (not to mention make your dog uncomfortable) by opting not to use Frontline.

With regard to the snap test, you are correct that a positive indicates exposure, but not necessarily clinical disease - there is a big difference between the two. With a positive snap test, I do not treat unless they are showing clinical symptoms of disease or if the patient is positive on a western blot test or shows seroconversion on a follow up anitbody test.

Finally, a Lyme vaccine does not interefere with the ability to diagnose the disease. A test called a western blot clearly shows the difference between vaccine exposure vs natural infection. No special lab is required for this test. The most common veterinary lab used in the US, Antech, runs this test for $120 (this figure includes average mark up), a mere $40 dollars more than the standard antibody test. Many vets will opt to do the western blot whether the patient has been vaccinated or not, as it is a much more sensitive test than the antibody test anyway, yielding considerabley less false positive results. I typically favor the western blot regardless of vaccine history because it is a superior test, however, I still use the antibody test in cases where financial concern is clearly a big issue.

In my view there is no Lyme vaccine controversy. As an individual you are entitled to follow whatever course you choose and I respect that. I simply personally cannot fathom how anyone chooses to place more confidence on the advice of breeders with zero medical training than a veterinarian that has extensive experience with Lyme disease and its vaccine.

Be sure to double check that, since they both begin with the letter "L", you are not confusing the Lyme vaccine with the Leptospirosis vaccine by Fort Dodge Animal Health. There was a time a few years ago where Lepto vaccine was causing serious vaccine reactions and many veterinarians were of the opinion that the risk of vaccine reaction outweighed risk of exposure to the disease. rw

[dlaura]

Milbrose I think you are putting yourself out there more then you need to as a breeder. Anyone purchasing a puppy whether it be from a breeder, pet store, or a home should take their new puppy or kitten to the vet for a "well check" within a week of getting it. In today's sue happy world you are risking a lawsuit either way you advise a new puppy owner. If you advise no lyme shot and the dog comes down with lyme and dies the owner could come back at you for the advice. Advice a lyme shot and if by chance there is an adverse reaction the owner could come back at you with a lawsuit. Lawsuits are brought today for all sorts of crazy reasons and a lot don't hold up in court, but why put yourself out there at all for the unneccessary hassle. Whenever I have been lucky enough to get a new animal I rely on my vet for the health of my animal and its long term well being. So I guess I am trying to say is that you should lay the responsibility of the new puppy's care on whatever vet the new owner decides to use. These are decisions they should be making and need to learn to make. It just amazes me how often people come on the board and ask what to do for their sick animal when it is totally obvious that it needs to go to the vet. Sorry, I don't mean to go on and on, guess it is just getting to me when people write about a cat that "came down" with a broken paw or their cat that was missing for over 3 months and is sick as can be but the vet is not available; etc. etc. etc. and they want to know what to do. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HAVE ANIMALS NEED TO KNOW WHEN IT IS TIME TO SEE THE VET!

[Magnum]

PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HAVE ANIMALS NEED TO KNOW WHEN IT IS TIME TO SEE THE VET!
Yes!!!! :D
I second the motion ;)

[JustJo]

I find the discussion of the Lyme vaccine interesting. When I lived in Beaverdam the vet hospital I took my dogs to encouraged the Lyme vaccine so I had them all vaccinated while living in that area. I did have concerns with this veterinary hospital due to several people in the area telling me of different issues with them. There was a high rate of personnel turnover and I never saw the same vet more than twice. I ran into a vet tech who used to work there and she said she had left because, among other issues, they were using expired vaccines and other meds. One of my best friend's dachshunds had been mauled by some stray dogs and she took Jolie to this hospital where she as told there was no hope for him. She drove 45 miles (to where I go now) and my current vet saved his life (Joel is still with us now - age 12). When Bullwinkle was 5 months old he was making scary noises (today I now know this to be reverse sneezing). This vet hospital did a chest x-ray then showed me the film and said he had a mass in his lungs which was probably cancer. After two days of rying and making an appointment with a specialist they called and said the film was bad. Geeez!

Anyway, when I started with my current vet and when Bullwinkle was due for his Lyme she discouraged giving it. She said that, even though we are in Virginia, that there were not significant cases reported in our area to justify giving it. Yes, Virginia is a mid-atlantic state but Lyme is only apparent in Northern Virginia up by the Maryland border. Of course I had to check everything out because that is just me being anal. I found that there were certain risks involved with the Lyme vaccine, and although there are no case studies as yet on dogs, there have been reports of adverse reactions. In an lengthy article from Jane E. Sykes BVSc(Hons) PhD DACVIM - University of California, Davis ( ) she states:

Adverse reactions to vaccines (‘vaccinoses’)

These may range from mild to life-threatening. They are often devastating to all involved, because the animal was healthy before visiting the veterinarian.

1. Immune-mediated

c) Type III – this is associated with immune-complex deposition. Anterior uveitis and subclinical nephritis developed in 0.4% of dogs receiving the CAV-1 vaccine. Attenuated CAV-2 vaccines rarely produce these lesions. Vaccination has been associated with polyarthritis, glomerulonephritis and amyloidosis in certain related Akitas. There is concern that prior vaccination with Lyme vaccines may exacerbate immune-mediated Lyme nephropathy

Though I already knew this from my breeder (Harlequin Great Dane) I also saw that Dr. Sykes mentioned that breeds with color coat dilutions such as Harlequin Great Danes appear to be at increased risk for severe and lingering adverse reactions to vaccines. In addition to the noted nephropathy risk I have read a few articles on the observations of that some dogs develop arthritic symptoms following vaccination with Lyme vaccine. Here is one in particular:

[URL=]http://www.labbies.com/lyme.htm (]http://www.mvma.org/Proceedings/Small%20Animal%20Infectious/Vaccinate%20or%20Not.html[/URL)

At any rate I am going with the advise of my current vet, who's knowledge and years of practice I put full faith in. If she says that they don't need it I'm not going to continue with Lyme vaccine. I do however use Frontline year round which I think adds protection.

Just my two cents here. I know many people differ on this issue of vaccination.

[Milbrose]

Jo and that is what I have been reading as well.....

I have learned over the years that there are things I trust my Vet about and there are things that I absolutely go to my breeders about. My personal experience is that breeders know alot more than vets give them credit for and they are often ahead of the times with regard to things like well animal care. Breeders would recommending adult foods over puppy chows for years before it was an accepted practice, breeders had concerns about over vaccination and the repurcussions thereof for years before the AVMA changed the guidelines. Breeders were willing to feed raw diets and that is just beginning to come around with Vets...... the fact is that breeders know a great deal about dogs and their health and welfare.

Personally, I would never go to a vet that disregarded the opinions and thoughts of my breeder so handilly simply because they dont have the right letters after their name.

Its not about knowing when to take ones dog to the vet, its about trusting one person without doing research of your own. Before my litter went home I did a ton of research and homework..... my vet (who I adore) makes fun of me because I am so darned neurotic about things but he also trusts me implicitly and I trust him, and that is why we have a great working relationship. When I wanted to try an unconventional drug therapy on a dog lame from Panosteitis after hearing from another breeder that it worked for them, he was willing to give this drug a shot even though it was an off label use. ya know what, he had never heard of it being used for pano before but it worked.... my ***** was no longer lame after two days on the medication, this was a dog that previously couldn't walk and her rear had atrophied terribly. Ya know what, he stashed that little bit of information in his head and has tried it with other clients and it works. We don't know why it works but it does.

My point is that we can learn from each other. I wouldn't try and treat a broken leg and let me tell ya with five dogs I spend a lot of money at the vet.

This thread has been interesting to me as well..... not only because I learn about the people answering questions, but because I can see what others think about issues of concern.

the lyme vaccine is scary to me...... there is an email list for people whose dogs have been impacted by lyme and there are several people on that list including a friend of mine who have dogs that are impacted by a vaccine related illness. The question is if the devil is in the disease or the vaccine..... and which do you want to deal with..... and that is a very personal decision...... you get the information that you can and you make a decision based on what you have.

As a University Professor I can assure you that some graduate in the top half and some graduate in the bottom half and some shouldn't graduate at all. But they do..... and letters after your name (and I have quite a few) aren't all they are cracked up to be.

Just my morning thoughts as I sit in my office and wait for cherubs to come and complain about their grades.
S

[RWDVM]

I agree fully that in an area that is not prone to the disease, a vaccine is not necessary. Seeing fully what diseases come through the door and what diseases don't, places vet in the best position to inform you what preventative protocols are appropriate for your pet. In Justjo's case, if her vet doesn't deem Lyme a real problem in her area, then I would agree that vaccination is not necessary. Here in Florida, Lyme is not a real problem and I do not vaccinate for it. However, on the north shore of Long Island where I used to practice, your dog has such a huge chance of contracting Lyme there, that it is utter foolishness not to vaccinate for it. And I will tell you one last time, I DID NOT SEE ONE LYME VACCINE ASSOCIATE COMPLICATION AFTER ADMINISTERING THOUSANDS. If the Lyme vaccine so commonly causes dangerous complications, then myself and the three other doctors in my old Long Island practice must be the luckiest vets in the world!

On another subject, I feel compelled to clarify another matter. It was not breeders that pushed the AVMA to adopt vaccine reform. Lacking medical training and not being held to the high standard of objective scientific method, breeders' stances are not even considered when the AVMA is deciding its position on medical issuues. It was actual AVMA members, vets like myself that presented hard clinical data testifying to the justification of core vaccines being given every three years; that led to the AVMA's reformed position on vaccines.

And you think that the raw food diet (aka, barf diet) was a revolutionary innovative approach to feeding dogs that proves breeders' brilliance? I, as well as every vet I know, can attest to countless cases of salmonella and e. coli poisoning caused by the barf diet that will tell you the opposite. This diet was an absolute travesty from the moment of its inception. Not a good example of breeder "brilliance."

rw

[Milbrose]

my point is not that the AVMA considered breeders in their discussion, but that breeders were questioning the vaccination schedule and encouraging alternative vaccination schedules LONG BEFORE the AVMA changed their guidelines, acting as if this is some new thing. Its not.

As for raw diet..... spoken like a true vet..... shoot even my own traditional vet is starting to feed his dogs raw. The fact is he is starting to see more and more dogs fed raw diets and shoot my dogs have been eating raw for over 5 years only because we have a boy who can't eat kibble... but after two days on a raw diet, the bloody "dire rear" went away and has returned only once when he got into a bag of Canidae brought home after we dog sat.

the fact is that breeders know way more than you give them credit for and as I have said before letters really don't mean much.

s

[RWDVM]

Look Milbrose, with regard to the raw diet, I will say only this - what I wrote did not come from my opinions, journal articles, or mere fancy (although plenty of case studies involving barf diet induced severe gastroenteritis/colitis are readily available in the literature). I did not imagine the cases of salmonella, e. coli, campylobacter, and clostridium that I saw from the barf diet back when it became fashionable. But if you like it, great. I wish you the best with that, and sincerely hope that your animals never experience the health consequences that tens of thousands of pets have.

The problem is not that I don't give breeders enough credit. The problem is that all too often people like yourself give them too much credit, accept their views as medical fact (to the point that you disregard the opinions of trained medical professionals), and subsequently propagate their theories that often have no basis in science. I will concede that some of these views, while having no medical significance whatsoever, are harmless, but some are down right dangerous.

And letters don't mean anything?? Do you realize that, in addition to completing a four year degree in a rigorous prevet curriculum, a person to even remotely be considered as a candidate for vet school has to log thousands of hours working in a veterinary hospital; as well as take and excell on the dreaded Graduate Record Exam? Once there, it only gets worse. The average college student takes 12 - 15 credit hours per semester. The vet school cirriculum dictates 24 -26 credit hours per semster for three years. The icing on the cake is the final year of intense clinical training where the student constantly rotates through every specialty; all while trying to cram for National Veterinary Board Examinations. Once vets, it doesn't stop there, having to participate in regular continuing education to stay current.

Our "letters" are the result of a life long commitment to learning that results in an intimate knowlege of anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, and surgery, the likes of which no breeder could ever remotely approach. In stark contrast, the requirements of a breeder are to obtain a male and a female of the same breed, let them do what is in their innate nature to, sell their offspring, and voaola - they are now experts.

Please understand that my statements are not an attack on breeders. I work with several breeders that offer their clients very scientifically based, current and useful information that is born from maintaining close working relationships with veterinarians and certified veterinary technicians. There are alot of good breeders whose knowlege is of great benefit to pet owners.

However, there are other kinds of breeders, who, for reasons that I do not understand, feel inclined to distance themselves from the veterinary community, create their own set of guidelines regardless of the fact that they may be the complete antithesis of what true objective medical observation has concluded. These types of breeders cause people to forgo important vaccines, feed off the wall diets, and do many things that just do not make any sense.

A good example of this is a general consensus among certain toy dog breeders in my area. They somehow arrived at the conclusion that it is dangerous to spay a toy breed dog before its first heat cycle, and that they should resist doing so even if their vet insists that such greater danger does not exist. Now, if these breeders any medical or surgical knowlege, they would know two things: 1.) The goal in spaying a dog is not only in preventing pregnancy and unwanted heats, but also to prevent mammary cancer. Spaying before the first heat decreases the incidence of the disease by 80%; allowing a first heat before spaying lessens the preventative aspect of the procedure by only 50%. 2.) There is infact a higher mortality rate with spays done after the dog's first heat regardless of size or breed. The reason for this is because after the first heat, the uterus is more vascular, leading to longer anesthesia time to control bleeding, and a higher incideance of post operative hemorrhage. This is just one example of all too many occasions that I see breeders steer people in the wrong, potentially dangerous direction.

[Milbrose]

I will be happy to share with you plenty of citations from your beloved journals with regard to why spaying and neutering prior to the first heat cycle is a problem For that matter aside from birth control, there is really not alot of reason to neuter at all...... with regard to cardiac hemangiosarcomas, endocrine disorders, incontence, hip dysplasia, incontinence...... I will be happy to go on and on if you would like..... Mammary and testicular cancers are one benefit but their are other things to consider. I would appreciate it if you didn't respond to my posts as if I am an idiot. I too had to pass the GRE I too was accepted to a very good school IN THE US. I too had to put alot of time and energy and research to get letters so don't address me like I am a moron.

Would you like me to post those for you so that you can go look them up.

Look, I realize that its a commitment to be a vet. Don't talk to me about time as I spent a great deal of time finishing up a PhD. I am a show breeder I have very few litters and do have time to do my homework. Actually my vet passes me along journals and as I said previously ......

half graduated at the top of their class, some graduated at the bottom, some shouldn't have graduated at all..... Some went to the University of Kansas, Tufts and Cornell and some went ummmmmm "elsewhere" .

The fact is that the best vets are those that work with clients, and breeders, realize that they too can always learn new things and don't let their egos get in the way of their learning.

and thats all I have to say......

It would seem to me that you and many of the Vets in my area are on a completely different plain. My Vets and many vets in this area are open to new things and new ides, they realize that they have things they can learn from me and I things to learn from them.

But be assured based on what I have learned
I most definitely won't be asking for your medical advice....

oh but let me know if you want those citations ...... because I too read the journals.
M

[RWDVM]

This last post expemlifies my point better than anything I have written or will write on this matter. I have nothing further. rw