just though I'd post this.

[John Olexa]

Just in case any newbies wanted to have a look

http://www.peta.org/

[Suzy03]

I was absolutley in tears, john, when I watched the video on Japan fur trade. It scared and shocked me so much. I just couldn't believe what I was watching. There aren't enough people in this world that know this kind of torture goes on, I honestly believe. Can't anyone put an end to this kind of torture to animals? Are there any kind of vegilante groups who go and physically destroy such set ups to hinder this kind of torture to animals? Do the people who do this to animals suffer any kind of consequences for there choices? Are they ever beatup or stabbed by random people who hate what they are doing to the animals? Where do these people end up paying for their cruel acts at?

[Magnum]

They say that serial killers usually start off harming animals, then turned to humans. What about all those that work in slaughter houses, and those doing such horrible acts to animals every single day to keep the grocery stores stocked with meat and the fashion industry booming? I don't see how anyone can go to work, slam chickens, cattle, pigs, you name it around, kick them, beat them with pipes, zap them with prods, see them crammed in cages so tight they can't move, watch them struggle to just stand, let alone walk, watch millions suffer on a daily basis, then go home and get a good nights sleep.

Even if PETA is showing the worse video coverage in their archives, it is real and there are no computer graphic enhancements. Those animals, along with millions of others, truly suffer a painful, heinous death. :mad:

[John Olexa]

[QUOTE=Suzy03]I Are there any kind of vegilante groups who go and physically destroy such set ups to hinder this kind of torture to animals? QUOTE]


Yes there are.

[bisquik]

Because, as we all learned in kindergarten, two wrongs make a right.

Not that I think beating the animals to death to make Paris Hilton's fur stole is condonable, it certainly is not. But doesn't beating someone up for beating animals seem a bit hypocritical?

More flies with honey than with vinegar. And you wonder why people think PETA folks are extremist nutcases?

[John Olexa]

Because, as we all learned in kindergarten, two wrongs make a right.

Not that I think beating the animals to death to make Paris Hilton's fur stole is condonable, it certainly is not. But doesn't beating someone up for beating animals seem a bit hypocritical?

More flies with honey than with vinegar. And you wonder why people think PETA folks are extremist nutcases?

No one, I repeat no one has ever been hurt in a ELF rescue

[bisquik]

From Webster's unabridged:

Main Entry: vig·i·lan·te
Pronunciation: "vi-j&-'lan-tE
Function: noun
Etymology: Spanish, watchman, guard, from vigilante vigilant, from Latin vigilant-, vigilans
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law appear inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice

PETA is not the police. Destruction of property and vandalism are illegal. Vigilantism is illegal. Unfortunately, making fur clothing is legal. But we here in civilization accept that we must follow the laws made by the authorities, and are not free to simply make up our own as we please.

And specifically, the other poster referred to inflicting bodily harm upon people who work in fur factories as punishment.

I will repeat: two wrongs do not make a right. Find a peaceful, sane way to accomplish your goals. I will also repeat: this is why PETA folks are widely regarded as lunatics.

[John Olexa]

You do things your way, I'll do them mine

by the way it's the ALF & ELF that do this, not PETA.. ALL OF WHICH I'm ACTIVE WITH. But even then no people get hurt. I mis-read the post.
Do I feel guilty........ Not a damm bit! You should see some these poor animals!

[d_broncochic]

i love my boys, but a good pop up the side of the head gets a little more attention than a
"please dont do that or your in time out" kind of thing.

my point,
in some cases...to end an action, the resolution has to be stronger than the action itself.
Its called consequence.

[bisquik]

Oh, the old "the ends justify the means" argument. So tell me, are the Iraqi insurgents justified in blowing up convoys when their end goal is the respected notion of self-government? Of course not -- that's why that argument doesn't hold water with rational people.

[kwitty]

If I saw what was going on as was described in that article (I couldn't bring myself to watch the video) in person, I myself would not be able to mantain any rationality at that moment. I understand what you are trying to say Bisquick, but put yourself in that position actually standing there and witnessing that being done to an animal in person. Could you stand there & watch and do nothing? I would go ballistic! It's easy to stand back & just read about it & say there are rules. I myself am a law abiding citizen, but I have never had to witness somthing as so horrible as this. If I saw somthing like this in front of my own eyes, then you would have to hold me back.

[Magnum]

Well put Kwitty ;)

BTW, I love your signature "In memory of Kitty Witty".

[kwitty]

Thanks, Magnum. I feel like he is always with me. It gives me comfort.

[John Olexa]

Oh, the old "the ends justify the means" argument. So tell me, are the Iraqi insurgents justified in blowing up convoys when their end goal is the respected notion of self-government? Of course not -- that's why that argument doesn't hold water with rational people.

Sigh, once again, thats killing someone.

The ALF as never killed or even hurt (except maybe someones pride) anyone. just rescuing tortured animals & sometimes making sure it won't happen again for a while.

[kwitty]

Just to clarify things - I don't go around beating people up either. What I was saying earlier was just theoretical. I don't understand how animal rights activists can be compared to Iraqi insurgents. Animal Rights Activists are trying to help animals and rescue them. Iraqi insurgents are just out to kill people because they don't want a democracy, they want to rule by tierney. Totally different issues.

[yankeechick]

hmmm. at risk of sounding unpatriotic, here goes. iraqi insurgents are not out to squelch democracy because they want to rule by tyranny. they are driven by a deep-seated (though, in my esteemed opinion, distorted) fundamentalist viewpoint and are doing what they feel is their duty. these iraqi insurgents think that their actions are going to help their people and rescue them. i see the comparison made earlier regarding this group of people and the very militant animal rights activists (and not all animal rights activists are millitant). the area of interest for the two groups is different but the motivation is similar. i'm not trying to insult anyone, as i'm sure bisquik was not, i just find it an interesting comparison.
uh oh. now i've done it, i'm sure the feds will be knocking down my door and throwing my unpatriotic self into the clinker because of my divergent viewpoint!! :p

[Suzy03]

No, I feel noone is trying to insult anyone, just voicing their opinion on how ultimately this kind of gut wrenching skinning of these animals is done. I see it as a violent act. With no consideration of what the animal is feeling whatsoever. I mean the man was tearing the skin off of this animal while the animal was still alive, writhing with pain as the man continued to tear the fur right down over his head. the animal continued to live, half dead as he was thrown in the back of the truck with other ones before him. I mean, in the mans mind he's just trying to make money, the quickest and most convenient way he can in Japan. The man in the Peta video went right along from animal to animal like he was just doing a job with no hesitation as to how dead or not dead or how suffering the animal was before he started to take the knife and cut the skin off from around the feet and legs, from their he skinned the fur right off the tail bone. These animals were still alive crying out in pain, writhing their limbs trying to get away, as all this was being done.

[John Olexa]

OK, so far in this thread, I have been called a vigilante, lunatic, Linked with Iragi insurgents, un-rational and now a militant LMBO. Dang I'm busy hehehe....... but you know what? One's right!!

But Which one ;)

[yankeechick]

and the question is... which does he choose to embrace??
i think i'd admit to being irrational. it's the most acceptable of the adjectives in this day and age! heck, you can even be elected commander in chief! ;)
(now i've really done it... i think they're knocking at my door as we speak!)

and also, susie, i am quite aware of the fur trade and the way in which it (the fur) is harvested and i find it heartbreaking and nauseating, particularly that a human can inflict this kind of pain on another creature for the sake of a greasy buck. i certainly do not approve of this practice and would never ever support it. it is obviously quite the abomination, and i suspect that the people involved in the fur trade (and i'm talking about the ones who do the dirty work, not the ones who reap the profits) are hardly proud of the work that they do. they are not the enemies. the ones who compel them to do this, who take advantage of someone in a weak economic state who has very few viable options for employment that will sustain him and his family, these are the true villians! we must look at who is holding the strings, since such cruelty is NOT inherent to human nature.

[Riosmommy]

I dont know anything about Elf and Alf yet everyone has their own lines they will cross for a cause. If many of these animals rights groups where not out their could you imagine what else would be happening. I look at my pets and cant imagine anyone doing anything to them. A large friend of ours almost sat on my dog who was laying on the couch and we went crazy. *** Look at the poor dog in Jersey today that someone burned *** Even when the culprits get caught very little happens to them. They should be sentenced just as if they harmed a human or attempted to kill a human. Man in general has no right to cause harm to any animals. Look at the tiger they killed. I thought Ronald Regan lived on ranches that meant he loved animals, out their are all ranches an farms animals; how do they justify this kill. Granted that type of tiger doesn't belong their or is not native to their. Yet they could have tranquilized it.. Their are people in this world who don't like animals ( ex.. my ex husband ;.. one of the reasons he is an ex) those people will do anything to animals. You need groups and people to stand up an defend those that are laws do not protect. You cant label an entire group on actions of a few. But remeber if it was your pet you would surely be ready to rip someones head off. I seen alot of Peta's info .. I don't know all the negative issues regarding them or the other organizations. I just have no sympathy for anyone who could harm an animal and I never will.
Riosmommy

[yankeechick]

agreed. i'm simply stating that the muscle behind the fur industry is not the only guilty party. your governor's wife who requires a full length fur coat to traipse around in is just as guilty because without her there would be no demand. You local television station is just as at fault when it advertises a markdown on a store's fur inventory, also adding to the demand. the fashion industry is probably the most guilty of the guilty for continuing to use and glamorize the pelts despite the barbaric way that they are harvested. :(

[John Olexa]

and the question is... which does he choose to embrace??
i think i'd admit to being irrational.

Nope, not it ;) Oh, you can take out the Iraqi insurgents to

[bisquik]

C'mon John, I went to school in southern Maryland, too. I know they teach analogies and the function of an analogy.

But, in case you need a refresher, I was not calling you an Iraqi insurgent. Irrational, yes, vigilante, yes. Both are true. The Iraqi insrugent thing was an analogy. You know, a parallel between two things. Yankeechick got it right -- you're both using the same argument of the ends justifying the means. I said nothing about whether or not people have been killed or injured in your little raids or whatever it is you do. But the same rationale is there -- I can do whatever I want, as long as I stop X thing from happening.

[John Olexa]

The Iraqi insrugent thing was an analogy. You know, a parallel between two things. Yankeechick got it right -- you're both using the same argument of the ends justifying the means.

I see no parallel at all between the 2.
1 group does nothing but slaughter, and the other prevents slaughter.

[bisquik]

For the gazillionth time, it's your RATIONALE that is the same.

Besides, both are destructive, no?

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

[John Olexa]

I disagree

[JustJo]

From websters unabridged:

gazillionth : hmmmm. no definition.

Is it more than twice? :confused:

[John Olexa]

Yes. I think its a little less then a kazillion though :D

[jonesy zoo]

well I just watched this video and let me tell you I have seen some horrible things in my time ..but never to this extreme and all I can say is thank God there are people in the world John Olexa...I was always of the belief that what this man does was extreme for a very long time but seeing and watching people you will risk the own lives to save another weather it be human /animal,to me should not be put down or made light off...he should be held up as a example to show us what one person can do rather sit and judge lets all get off how behinds and get out there and do something that will make a difference...

[John Olexa]

well I just watched this video and let me tell you I have seen some horrible things in my time ..but never to this extreme and all I can say is thank God there are people in the world John Olexa...I was always of the belief that what this man does was extreme for a very long time but seeing and watching people you will risk the own lives to save another weather it be human /animal,to me should not be put down or made light off...he should be held up as a example to show us what one person can do rather sit and judge lets all get off how behinds and get out there and do something that will make a difference...

aahhhh, well thank you !! :o

Theres so many ways to help with out going to the extremes I do.

anything you do for a animal, no matter how big or small makes you a hero in my book

['too crazy]

OK, so far in this thread, I have been called a vigilante, lunatic, Linked with Iragi insurgents, un-rational and now a militant LMBO. Dang I'm busy hehehe....... but you know what? One's right!!

But Which one ;)
It's got to be lunatic! But what do I know, I'm too 'crazy'. :D Anybody ever notice how when we hear about an animal being abused or the abuser getting a slap on the wrist we always go to John for help. And of course, he always comes through with a phone number ar address or something that we can do to help. I agree with jonsey zoo, thank God for people like John and I for one am very happy to have him on our board. He doesn't just talk the talk, he walks the walk and helps many animals along the way.

[John Olexa]

Thank you Too Crazy , I really appreciate the kind words.

['too crazy]

No problem. I was just being honest. Hey, you didn't tell me if my guessing you were a lunatic was the right guess. :D

[John Olexa]

Main Entry: lu·na·tic
Pronunciation: 'lü-n&-"tik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English lunatik, from Old French or Late Latin; Old French lunatique, from Late Latin lunaticus, from Latin luna; from the belief that lunacy fluctuated with the phases of the moon
1 a : affected with lunacy : INSANE b : designed for the care of insane persons <lunatic asylum>

Ummmm, actually I was going to say Animal rights militant. But looking at the definition of lunatic LOL.

All kidding aside, I just got my 2005 PETA catalog. Theres a new book for sale by Steven Best , PH.D & Anthony J Nocella II titled
"Terrorist or Freedom Fighters? Reflections on the Liberation of Animals" It's about the history, ethics, politics and tactics of the ALf, Animal Liberation Front And its position within the animal rights movement. I want it for sure, who knows might recognize parts ;) 391 pages paperback $22.00
If anyones curious:
http://www.animalliberationfront.com/

['too crazy]

With all the Iraq talk, I was thinking along those lines with the militant but an animal rights militant is good. And one who's a lunatic is even better! :D And of course I mean this in a good way.

[jonesy zoo]

G'Day everyone...I was blown away by peoples naivety..{think thats how it is spelt} or stupidity...I was visiting last night and we got talking about fur coats...and they would not accept or consider the act what these animals go through...I brought up the video that John had put on the forum and explain what this man does..So sorry John if your hears were burning...and all they kept saying was they would have to be dead before they stripped their skins of them....so I was wondering is it ok that I post them the Link from this forum to them...My hubby was of the same opinion that the animals were dead but after seeing the video clip...which I might add he couldnt finish watching ..he had a change of opinion..Is it that we have become so used to the suffuring that we just dont care or couldnt be bothered....and I found the number one agrument was that God made animals for as and not the other way around...My response was God made animals for us to look after not to abuse and torture for our pleasure...Dont you ever wonder what God is doing..He must be where He is shaking His head and wondering what the heck is going on...this was never meant to happen

[John Olexa]

G'Day everyone...I was blown away by peoples naivety..{think thats how it is spelt} or stupidity...I was visiting last night and we got talking about fur coats...and they would not accept or consider the act what these animals go through...I brought up the video that John had put on the forum and explain what this man does..So sorry John if your hears were burning...and all they kept saying was they would have to be dead before they stripped their skins of them....so I was wondering is it ok that I post them the Link from this forum to them...My hubby was of the same opinion that the animals were dead but after seeing the video clip...which I might add he couldnt finish watching ..he had a change of opinion..Is it that we have become so used to the suffuring that we just dont care or couldnt be bothered....and I found the number one agrument was that God made animals for as and not the other way around...My response was God made animals for us to look after not to abuse and torture for our pleasure...Dont you ever wonder what God is doing..He must be where He is shaking His head and wondering what the heck is going on...this was never meant to happen

Please, by all means show them the video, link , all of it LOL!!

[bisquik]

JustJo,

You asked for it, here it is (from Webster's Unabridged):

Main Entry: ga·zil·lion
Pronunciation: g&-'zil-y&n
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of zillion
: an indeterminately large number
- gazillion adjective

So gazillionth would be the adverb to describe the noun gazillion.

Never underestimate the power of a linguist with the apporiate tools. :p

Oh, and by the way, John, nice work with the dictionary. But you forgot the second definition cited for lunatic: wildly foolish And here I thought it was already common knowledge that the etymology of the word 'lunatic' came from the idea that the phases of the moon affect people's and animal's emotions. Nice try, though, I applaud your effort.

[Magnum]

There is not one person I have shown the video's to that can watch them in their entirety. Each and every one of them walked away appalled at what they witnessed and are forever changed in their opinion, and enlightened. How can anyone say anything negative about a person that dedicates themselves to standing up and speaking against the horrendous acts these poor animals endure every single day. While I am sitting here typing, God knows how many animals are suffering at the hands of humans. :(

[JustJo]

I stand corrected Bisquik. First off I rechecked and I was using a 1983 Random House Unabridged and not a Webster's Unabridged. Random House Unabridged does not have the word gazillion or gazillionth in it. I'm at my parent's house and apparently they don't give a hoot about current lingo.

Sooo...it's more than twice??

[bisquik]

Evidently it is ;)

I have a collection that rivals that of Barnes and Noble.

[John Olexa]

JustJo,

Oh, and by the way, John, nice work with the dictionary. But you forgot the second definition cited for lunatic: wildly foolish And here I thought it was already common knowledge that the etymology of the word 'lunatic' came from the idea that the phases of the moon affect people's and animal's emotions. Nice try, though, I applaud your effort.


I didn't forget, I wouldn't have got as far as I have if I was "wildly foolish"
so it didn't apply to me.

[Mandy]

I've never seen anything like that in my life. I knew things like that happened...but not on such a large scale. When you think of things like that, you think of animal abuse punishable by law. You think of sick people who have no respect for life, disgusting people. Not something that's done legally, on a LARGE scale, in our own country, by our own citizens. That's disgusting and despicable and unforgiveable and just completely awful and horrible. I watched the slaughterhouse video, then the video about why you shouldnt eat meat, then the fur trade video and finally the animal testing video. WHY HAVE I NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE?!?!?! WHY HAVE I BEEN KEPT IN THE DARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm so angry that I've NEVER seen anything like this on the news, read about it in the newspaper. Is it to protect people? Because people don't want to see that? Would the station/paper be criticized? Is it for political reasons? Things like that shouldn't be kept from people!!! You need to see things like that, you need to see what's in those videos, to understand what's wrong with the fur trade, and what's wrong with slaughterhouses. Otherwise you just don't get it, I didn't get it, I had no idea. I cried when I watched those but I knew I had to watch all of them to the end because I knew it was something that I needed to see. I'm nauseous and upset and FURIOUS that this has been kept from me. It's just ridiculous.

[Magnum]

Wow Mandy!! I tried to watch any of them in their entirety and I couldn't do it.....even hubby couldn't. He was so upset he cringes when we drive past a fast food restaurant. You are right, this activity should not be held back from the public, but I do think it would have a major impact on the food industry, and I just don't see them exposing this willingly. I also feel that it is big money in these industries that feed the public every negative piece of material they can muster, even take out of context, to slam PETA. They have obviously been successful in doing this, and I know one that I work with that saw a 30 second glimps of one of the videos and was so upset until she found out the video was taken by PETA. She swore it was fixed, doctored, blah....blah....blah. That is plain stupidity. :(

[kwitty]

Magnum, I couldn't even watch it. I could tell just by the article and picture how horrible it would be. I know it would give me nightmares. I agree with your earlier post. I also applaud John for his efforts.

[Mandy]

How can you doctor that??? If it was fake, it would be more like complete fabrication/computer animation/special effects.
I wonder who she thinks would be more capable financially of making a bunch of videos like that: the cattle industry that gets $700 per cow with 200 million cattle, the fur industry that gets $40,000 a coat, or the pharmaceuticals companies that make millions of dollars of profit off their medications which were tested on animals, or PETA which im sure survives ONLY on donations??? Really, wouldn't those billion dollar industries have more of an incentive to HIDE things like that than PETA would to SHOW things like that? Does s/he have any idea how much money EACH industry probably spends on trying to keep these kinds of things from the public and downplay or refute entirely any claims of animal cruelty made? Use your heads, people!