Ban on Pet Cosmetic Surgery

[jcmboogie]

I heard that West Hollywood, CA is planning on banning all pet cosmetic surgery (i.e. tail docking, ear cropping etc.) in addition to declawing. What do you guys think of this? Is it good idea or bad idea? Because I really don't know what to think.

[Kaye]

I have always thought ear docking and tail cropping was cruel. All I can say is "about time."

[Shockadine]

That's good. I hate tail docking and ear cropping. Who does it benefit? Not the animal. Declawing is just sick. I don't beileve is modifying your pets for your convenience, so you can get out of properly training it, and to me that is all declawing is. Laziness. Aren't those things already banned in other parts of the world?

[amanda622]

they dont feel the tail docking and the ear one cause they do it when the are like a couple hours old its like cutting an ombilical SP? cord on a baby i personaly would not get a yorkie or a silky with a tail but the ears i dont care about brownies ears are down
declawing theres no need for just teach your cat not to claw the couch and stuff anyways this is my opinion

[draper]

I personally do not have an issue with tail docking - in fact I prefer cockers with a docked tail. However, I can assure you that they DO NOT always crop the ears within hours, or remove the dewclaws. I know this because my Mom's neighbor has a Dobbie and had her ears cropped AND dewclaws removed when the dog was a couple of months old. Had the legs in a walking cast type thing, and the collar around her head.

Besides, if the people really want their animals to go through the surgery - then they will just find a vet outside of the city that will do it. On that issue alone, I do not see the city passing that law, simply because the local vets would be protesting.

[Suzy03]

Anything that hints at cosmetic surgery spells !OUCH! It would be different if your bird could ask you, Hey I've been thinking about getting my tail feathers docked, they look too long or Oh listen, I want to get my claws taken out, I don't like that one that sticks out there. :p

['too crazy]

I'm against it all. If the dog was meant to have a short tail and ears standing up, it would have been born that way. Declawing is done at 3 months and the longer you wait, the more painful it is for the cat. My vet even gives out pain meds so if it doesn't hurt, why give out the meds? Because it does!! I'd like to see it be against the law EVERYWHERE!

[JustJo]

I have posted before on ear-cropping, etc. This is a very touchy subject in the Dane world. I will never have a Great Dane with cropped ears. I like Great Danes with "natural or European" ears. Unfortunately, in this country, even though it is "acceptable" to show a Great Dane with natural ears, the dog would never win a single show. It is a long and painful process to even get the ears to stand properly. Just go to a few rescue and shelter sites to see some of the disastrous ear cropping results.

As far as dewclaws - get them removed if you have a choice. BUT they should be removed between 3 - 5 days of age otherwise it involves anesthesia. In my opinion, removing the dewclaws is NOT cosmetic surgery like ear cropping or tail docking. As I've said before those dewclaws are just accidents wainting to happen.

Jo

[JustJo]

I went back to several sites in reagrds to dewclaws and here are some of the statements:

From dogstuffinfo: “….Dewclaws can be a real drag. These are the little thumb toenails that originate a little bit higher on the inside part of the leg. Often these nails are removed when the dog is a puppy. If they lack underlying bone structure and are loose, they can become caught in the carpet and tear. Because dewclaws do not touch the ground, they do not wear down. It is common for these nails to grow around in a circle and dig back into the dog’s skin. This causes a painful inflammation—if this happens to your dog, take it to your veterinarian.”

From gorp.away: Dewclaws are the "fifth finger" on the dog's front legs. Since dogs essentially walk on their toes, the dewclaw — the dogs thumb — usually dangles uselessly several inches above the ground. The dewclaw can catch on brush, logs, rocks, or other trail obstructions the dog has to navigate over, under, or around. A torn dewclaw can bleed a lot, but generally it isn't a serious injury.

From versatiledogs: Why remove dewclaws?

Why do they take out the declaws on a dog? I have standard poodles and my vet says to get it done,can you tell me why and if it really makes a difference one way or another? thank you again dkota

Answer:
Dewclaws are usually removed to prevent them from catching and tearing while "Fido" is out frolicking in the field. As I have said before, I recommend the dewclaws in sporting breeds be removed at 2-5 days of age. For older dogs, the dewclaws are firmly attached by bone and I don't remove them unless they become a problem. The exception would be the dog with hind dewclaws that are loosely attached by a ligament, I remove these at the owners earliest convenience regardless of the dogs age.

Dr. Mike
__________________________________________________ ___________

In MHO since dewclaws really serve no purpose that I know of there is no harm in removing them as long as it's in the first few days of life. I will not have my dog's dewclaws removed now because they are adults and I didn't have the choice to have it done when they were born. I still don't consider dewclaw removal to be cosmetic but rather to be practical and preventative surgery. Another example of preventative surgery I would use is if I had a female Great Dane. When I had her spayed I would also elect to have her stomach secured to the abdominal wall to prevent gastric torsion, which is the #1 killer of Great Danes.

However, I do think that ear cropping and tail docking are cosmetic surgery and wouldnot ever have that done to any of my dogs.

Jo

[John Olexa]

I'm against it all. If the dog was meant to have a short tail and ears standing up, it would have been born that way. Declawing is done at 3 months and the longer you wait, the more painful it is for the cat. My vet even gives out pain meds so if it doesn't hurt, why give out the meds? Because it does!! I'd like to see it be against the law EVERYWHERE!

Couldn't have said it better myself ! :)

[krazy4birds]

declawing theres no need for just teach your cat not to claw the couch and stuff anyways this is my opinion


Amanda...they were talking about the dew claws here. :) ....I think they should be removed too. Now de-clawing is a different story :eek: and like you I do not believe in it at all!

[JustJo]

De-clawing is a HORRIBLE procedure and IMHO even worse than ear cropping or taildocking. Another one is the De-barking surgery. Those are both done by owners that don't want to deal with cats and dogs natural behavior. I say get a fish if you don't like what cats and dogs do to your furniture or nerves.

Jo

[John Olexa]

I say get a fish if you don't like what cats and dogs do to your furniture or nerves. Jo

hehehehe very true!! I like that :D

[Sasami]

That's great! I don't agree with declawing. I don't like ear cropping or tail docking either but I admit my Cocker Spaniel has a docked tail. But when I got her she had it...I personally wouldn't have gotten it docked.

[BeatngU]

I personally do not have an issue with tail docking - in fact I prefer cockers with a docked tail.

How can you be okay with chopping off a part of a dog's vertabrae? I don't think you'd like it if someone decided part of your spine wasn't very useful or pretty and just decided to chop it off because they felt like it. There is nothing sadder than seeing a dog wanting to wag its tail but all they can do is move around their little stub.

However, I can assure you that they DO NOT always crop the ears within hours, or remove the dewclaws. I know this because my Mom's neighbor has a Dobbie and had her ears cropped AND dewclaws removed when the dog was a couple of months old. Had the legs in a walking cast type thing, and the collar around her head.


Knowing the pain that comes with such things, again, how can you be in favor of tail docking?

[mzdolittle]

I had my cat, Dixie, declawed 20 years ago. I didn't know at the time that they removed the 1st joint of the toe or I would not have had it done. She lived to be almost 21 years old and I'm sure she didn't remember having it done or miss them. I was determined not to get the next cat I got declawed. Salem showed up on my doorstep uninvited 8 years ago. I had the soft paws put on him several times and they lasted less than a week. I kept his nails clipped. After he was here about 6 months, he got into a scuffle with my pekingnese, Sandy. She lost an eye to his clipped claw. I couldn't find him another home, so I got him declawed. It was either he went through the surgery or to the pound. I wasn't willing to risk Sandy's only remaining eye. The next cat, Tigger, came to me already declawed. When I rescued the next, Clover, 6 years ago,(he was a wild kitty inside the plant where I worked and there was poison put out for him) I took him home and spent a lot of time taming him. I suffered a lot of nasty scratches and infections, the last of which, I almost lost a finger to, being I am diabetic. On the advice of my doctor, I tried to rehome him. No one wanted this unloveable kitty. Since my other cats had suffered no ill effects other than the immediate discomfort of the surgery, I had Clover declawed. In my opinion, it was better for them to suffer for a week or two and end up in a good home, than be put to death at the pound. Dixie and Tigger were and Salem and Clover are very spoiled cats with a very loving home. I don't think you should get cats declawed just to save the furniture, but if it saves their lives or yours (or another baby's eye) then I think it is a viable alternative. Having said that, I have 2 cats who live in my basement because I won't get them declawed and they can't live upstairs with their claws.

[bisquik]

Hm, cosmetic, you say?

Well, declawing cats is not cosmetic, it's convenient, and it can cause problems so maybe it's not such a fantastic idea. Ear cropping is purely cosmetic, and I have to agree with everyone that it is unnecessary and cruel.

But I beg to differ on both dew claw removal and tail docking. OK, dew claws first. I have two pointers, the older of which had an unsuccessful dew claw removal on one paw. It can be a delicate procedure since the claws are tiny at 2-5 days old. So it was not completely removed. My active hunter has ripped it several times. But when they are cut at a few days, the underlying bone structure is not fully formed. If I were to have the remainder of the nail removed now, it would be a major surgery. His tail is also docked, and there is documentation in regards to the correlation between undocked hunting dogs and tail injury, which can often result in adult amputation. German shorthairs, Viszlas and Weimaraners have traditionally been docked because they have long, thin tails with very short hair and no layer of fat to protect them. Undocked dogs of these breeds, when being used for their intended purpose, frequently end up with split, bleeding tails that never get better. English pointers do not have docked tails, although they are a similar breed, because originally they were not intended to flush, track and retrieve game, only to point it, which will most likely not lead to tail injury. When my two dogs are out in the woods, especially when they catch a scent, they are crashing through brush with their tails wagging hard and fast. If that tail were a foot longer, imagine what would happen to it.

I think tail docking in some breeds, like Yorkies, is ridiculous. Whatever purpose it once served, it no longer does. But there are still breeds out there for whom tail docking serves its original purpose. You've got to remember, tail docking did not begin as "cosmetic surgery;" it began as preventive medicine, if you will. I am glad that my two active bird dogs had their tails docked before they were fully formed, it's a much simpler process than doing it when they are adults. A final analogy: it's far less cruel than a procedure we routinely perform on baby boys, which any OB will tell you is purely aesthetic. At least tail docking and dew claw removal have a purpose.

[John Olexa]

Hm, cosmetic, you say?

English pointers do not have docked tails, although they are a similar breed, because originally they were not intended to flush, track and retrieve game, only to point it, which will most likely not lead to tail injury. When my two dogs are out in the woods, especially when they catch a scent, they are crashing through brush with their tails wagging hard and fast. If that tail were a foot longer, imagine what would happen to it.


Just think if they weren't use for flushing, tracking, and retrieving..... "game" :rolleyes:
nobody would have to worry about tail docking ;)

[bisquik]

And just think...if people weren't meant to eat "game" we wouldn't have canine teeth or a biological need for protein ;)

Seriously, I know you're anti-hunting for any reason whatsoever, and that's great -- especially because you're not a meat-eating hypocrite, who supports the cruel meat-packing industry while proselytizing about the horrors of hunting. I personally happen to eat meat, and believe me, no one hunts quail or grouse to hang on the wall!!! Besides, there's nothing quite as astounding as seeing the instincts of a good gundog at work. That being said, we have not actually hunted our pointers yet...we go on "hunts" that consist of hiking through the woods and letting them find and point game before praising them for a job well done :D

[John Olexa]

I know this is not about hunting, but since your here. I always want to know, why do people use dogs to flush out birds & not just do it them selves? I'm not being funny, just never knew why.

[bisquik]

That's a good question. My dogs being pointers, they typically are not used to flush, though they can. It makes more sense to me as well to flush the bird yourself...if nothing else, it lessens the odds that you will accidentally shoot pooch (as he will be next to you, not in front of you and next to the thing you're trying to shoot)

Back in the day, retrievers were to retrieve, and primarily duck and waterfowl, spaniels flushed, setters set (kinda like pointing), and most pointers (with the exception of the English pointer) were bred to be versatile dogs -- in other words, to find feather or fur, water or land, upland or marsh, heavy or light cover, and can point, flush, track and retrieve equally well. In fact, the German shorthaired pointer is an incorrect translation of Deutsch kurzhaar, which is literally German shorthair, but the AKC forced the parent club to classify them as a pointer or a retriever, so now we have the illustrious GSP. Most well-bred pointers, spaniels and setters are still very versatile, and can be trained to do any number of tasks. Just a little history lesson of the breed I am so very impressed with.

[JustJo]

I understand some of the reasons given for tail docking, however, I still do not agree with it. I have a Great Dane, whose breed is notorious for tail splitting and was originated for hunting wild boar. Yet that breed does not "fashionably" have their tails docked but their ears cropped. I have written a few times about how my house has looked like Freddy Kruger paid a visit and there are still spots of blood on my ceiling from Bullwinkle's tail. He and I have learned to live with this and when I see him get overly excited and start to bang that tail against the wall or whatever I quickly put myself between him and the wall. Yes, it is a pain in the butt but it has never seemed to bother him in the least when his tail has split. I don't think he has ever even been aware that his tail was bleeding. I would say it has happened 5 times in his life and we have gotten through it without the loss of his beautiful tail.

__________________________________________________ _______________
From www.animallaw.info/articles/dduscroppingdocking.htm#III:

Tail docking and ear cropping date to the early Romans, who believed that the practices prevented rabies. During the European Middle Ages, through the end of the 18th century, Lamarck's theory of acquired characteristics was widely accepted. As such, people believed that by docking the tails of the parents, "the new born puppies would look like their parents" and also exhibit short tails. In addition, long-tailed or floppy-eared dogs used for hunting, fighting, or watching flocks were at a greater risk of injury associated with those activities. As such, tails were docked and ears cropped to reduce the number of places another dog or other animal could grab. The owners of working dogs often believed that tail docking reduced a dog's maneuverability, thereby discouraging the dog from chasing game,while the other dog owners often believed that tail docking resulted in a stronger back and increased speed.

Finally, various tax schemes may have accounted for the proliferation of tail docking. In some areas, dogs used for work were not taxed, so the owners of such dogs would dock the tails to indicate that the dog was used for work and not subject to tax. In other areas, farmers were taxed according to the length of their dogs' tails, so docking was used to reduce the tax liability. Moreover, sport hunting was considered to be reserved for the wealthy nobility, and it was believed that only long-tailed dogs were suitable for hunting. As such, the owners of long-tailed dogs were required to pay a high tax and tail docking became a practice of the commoners.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Including other reading I have done on this subject, it seems that historically tails were docked for many other reasons than hunting or tail splitting. Why, in the old days many societies used to dock the tails of their horses also. What possible reason besides "fashion" could they have come up with for that?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one because I still don't see any really justified reason for doing it. Tailsplitting...yeah it's a bummer but there's also the chance that it might never happen and then the dog has that nice long tail to wag when you come home :)

Jo

[JustJo]

Ha! Just thought that maybe some readers might wonder how I could be all for removing dewclaws as a preventative and not for tail docking.

My response is that in my experience with Bullwinkle, his tail splitting doesn't bother him a bit. He is oblivious to it and it doesn't seem to cause him any grief or pain. On the other hand, when he tore his dewclaw off he was in extreme pain and cried and cried. There must be more nerves in the toe than the tail.

[bisquik]

I agree with you wholeheartedly that docking for appearance is unnecessary. That's great that you can prevent your dog from resplitting his tail. But try to prevent tail injury on a dog that is crashing through heavy cover, trees, bushes, reeds and thorns, oblivious to his body, at full speed. My dogs do not run around things, they run through them. That's how they are bred to do it. I cannot prevent them from injuring their tails.

I guess I just don't see this as a black-and-white situation, especially since my dogs fall into the very gray area. Cosmetic alterations on dogs, I do not agree with. But you cannot say that absolutely 100% of tail docking is purely cosmetic, cruel and unnecessary. There is plenty of documentation that it is neither cruel nor, in most cases, purely cosmetic, and there are plenty of instances in which it is necessary.

I see your point, that there are cases in which it is unnecessary. But, if tail docking and dew claw removal are outlawed, it's going to hurt a good number of traditionally docked working dogs. Oh, the dangers of extremism....

[JustJo]

Bisquick,

I know your dogs are German Shorthair and they do seem to be the top hunting dog with tail injuries. Case in point: Sweden has banned taildocking except for the German Shorthair so I fully understand your position since you do use your dogs in the field. Personally, I do not condone hunting but am aware that there are many people that feel very strongly about it both ways.

I also know two households that have German Shorthairs and they never were intended to be used to hunt. They were purchased as pets and as "pet quality" so why did the breeder dock the tails? This is what the thread is saying, that there are many dogs and cats out there that are having amputations strictly for cosmetic reasons, not preventative or necessary surgeries. I know from your posts that you agree that this is wrong.

Jo

[bisquik]

Sure, part of it is tradition. So is circumcision, and yet people seem not to object to this equally barbaric and more cosmetic procedure.

In order to only dock the tails of field and show quality dogs, breeders would have to wait until they are much older to do so. It is simply not possible to tell at 3-5 days of age if a pup will be field or show quality, or merely "pet" quality. And no matter how good a breeding it is, it's still always a gamble, i.e. it's possible that dogs from non-show lines could be show quality. Far better for all pups to be docked at 3 days than at 3 weeks, on the off-chance that a couple will be sold as "pet only." Because most (emphasis on most, not all) gun dog breeders don't sell their pups to "pet only" homes anyway. Taking all that into account, I still stand by my opinion that docking the tails of working dogs is perfectly justified, because in order to triage and decide which ones may not need it means all pups who get docked suffer a much more major surgery than if it had just been allowed in the first place. Now, about the foo-foo dogs whose tails are docked, that's someone else's battle to win or lose. Also, if you know you only want a dog for a pet, and are against tail docking, why not tell the breeder before the litter is on the ground that you want one reserved whose tail is not to be docked?

And I never said I think it's wrong -- I said it's unnecessary. Which I can see how others could construe as being wrong.

[Hanajunsmom]

Just think if they weren't use for flushing, tracking, and retrieving..... "game" :rolleyes:
nobody would have to worry about tail docking ;)

John you so read my mind! I know everyone has a right to their own opinion and I too do not condone hunting.

Somone had mentioned, I think, that tail docking is not painful for puppies. I cannot tell you the number of four day old puppies I have held in my hands while the vet lopped of their tails. That image is burned in my mind, with them screaming and crying in pain! So, yes it DOES hurt!

There have also been several occassions when dogs who were being boarded at the clinic I worked at would split their tails open. We would clean them up, wrap them in gauze and vet wrap and keep a close eye on them. Then we would note it in their charts for the next time they boarded and wrap their tails up before they even went back to their kennels.

My first day as a vet tech I had to watch an ear cropping surgery. It was the bloodies, most barbaric thing I have ever been witness to. The vet actually takes a pair of scissors and cuts they outside of the ear off! I almost fainted, no joke, and thought boy I am never going to make it in this field.

The maintanence after an ear cropping is crazy and sometimes the ears don't always stand or one is floppy. My best friend has a dane an immediately wanted to get his ears croped. I finally convinced her not to. Thank God!

[Wolat]

My two cents:
declawing : in general it is not a good thing. although sometimes it is necessary, i find very few cases are so. the only declaws i fully condone are those done on polydactily cats. specifically those extra nails that occr between toes that aren'ts attached to any toes or specific structures. As for declawing becos two animals got into a fight? the fight should have been prevented rather than subjecting them to that pain. not all declaws are succesful and some continue to b in pain ever after.
dew claw removal : i myself like a dewclaw on a dog. and i do know its a danger to leave it there, but as mentioned earlier if they're done at a later age it is very traumatic. If it has to be done, let it be done when they are days old. i see that as a lesser evil because their nervous system isn't fully developed they don't feel the full brunt of the pain. not that they don't feel it mind u, but it hurts less.
tail docking: there are many breeds for whom this is well advised, viszlas, german shorthair, weimaraner, etc. I myself don'tmind how the weimaraners are docked becos they do have a little tail remaining. however a full dock doesn't look good to me, and if i had to choose, i'd rather have a full tail.
ear cropping : bad idea, lots of pain, lots of blood, and all for a not so good chance of getting the ears to stand up AFTER they are tied up to stand up. i'm a pit bull fan, and the standard prefers they not have ears cropped, and yet almost all show pits are cropped, becos the breeders don't want to try and breed for the right ears... the correct ears looks sooo good... besides ears look best whole =)

hunting is a very iffy subject. i personally don't agree with trophy huntning, and until recently was mostly against hunting in general. but my bofriend's family all hunt. and not just for the "joy" of hunting, but to put food on the table when times are lean. to supplement the food they buy. not that they don't have money, but that it saves money.
deer hunting in these days is necessary, bcos previous residents eliminated the natural population control (wolves) .

this is a very touchy subject. it is a good idea that they are banning it, i think. but i would hope they allow for instances where it is necessary. there are emergency situations or chronic conditions (tail splitters) where docking, cropping, or removal of toes/claws is necessary.

-Jossie
Ricky the Circus Chihoo
Snorting Norton Goofus Maximus
Siete-Siete Cheep Cheep
Regal stealth ninja cat Banjo
Manny and Beebop Ratses

[PentePenguin]

Sure, part of it is tradition. So is circumcision, and yet people seem not to object to this equally barbaric and more cosmetic procedure.

Actually, men have been known to get infections from not having it circumcized. I used to think it was pretty sick, too, until my husband explained. So I think having a little bit of skin cut off is better than the whole thing falling off (Sorry for the over-dramatization, just thought it added to my point. :) )
Take care,
Dawn

[bisquik]

Yikes, then someone needs to tell that to the obstetricians at the hospital where I interpret!!! The medical community in general does not encourage the procedure and tells patients it is an aesthetic operation with no medical benefits. Now imagine interpreting that for someone for whom circumcision is not the cultural norm :eek: