Anyone else feed raw?

[bridgett81]

For dinner Bull gets some carrots, pears, and deer meat mixed in with his kibble. He loves it! I feel good because I KNOW where those things came from.

[krazy4birds]

I'm not up on the do's and don'ts for dogs anymore but it sounds healthy. I have always heard that deer meat was very lean thus making it healthy.

[Djenks]

much debate is out there, but some people are very strict on the fact that you should never feed raw with kibble. They get broken down and processed at significantly different rates and thus be a little strain on the digestive system. Thats what i've heard.

Also, make sure to puree the veggies becuase dogs cannot break down cellulose and have to have it done for them. Sounds really good!

I'm 100% Raw.

[Shih Tzus 4]

I don't feed raw. I think it's great that you do though! I just drove an 1 1/2 hours today to Paws Mart to find Innova dog food. I've ordered some in town about 3 weeks ago and it's not in yet. I hope the guys like it....they better like it!!!!

[Pard]

Hi I'm new here but this is a topic that I'm very interested in so I thought I'd just give my opinion.

I was recently at a dog show with my sister and her friends and they all own a company called Primal Pet Foods which is basically raw meat. They tried to sell me on the stuff but I was (an am) very against the whole thing; not only because it's a hassle to find someplace that seels it, but also because it's expensive and I honestly don't think that it's good for them.

People argue that dogs are basically wolves and that they need to eat raw foods in order to be healthy. I totally disagree because dogs are not wolves, they are domesticated. They are so domesticated that many couldn't survive on their own in the wild (i.e. chihuahuas, pugs, poodles and a lot of other breeds that have been altered a great deal). So I see no reason to think that they could process raw foods anymore than a human could. Granted, some people eat raw meats, but I doubt that anyone here only eats raw beef or chicken.

Anyway, that's my very first post and I hope that I haven't offended anyone. But, if someone would like to challenge what I said I'm willing to hear the other side :)

Pard

[bisquik]

Do you have anything other than a hunch to support your opinion that raw food is bad for them?

I habitually give mine raw egg, raw salmon and just recently they had some raw deer meat. They've had raw pork and plenty of raw beef and raw beef fat.

Sometimes we attribute far too many human qualities to our companion animals. Dogs do not have the same digestive systems we do. Example: humans get salmonella poisoning from the salmonella bacteria on raw food such as eggs and chicken. Dogs do not -- they simply pass this bacteria through their digestive tract and it comes out in their stool. Logical conclusion: dogs can handle raw food; humans cannot.

[d_broncochic]

Although my pups and kitts get a wheat free diet (reduces their dry skin in this dry climate and for hunter, thats important without that 4th leg to scratch behind his ears)

On occasion, i will give them cooked meat (left over from dinner,) gravy, raw meat, shared sushi and eggs. Not daily, just as treats, kind of like ice cream or candy for my kids.

lovin from the kitchen

[Pard]

I'm not a scientist or anything so I don't have proof that I'm right, but I have talked to vets and they say the same thing. I'm not saying that you can't feed any raw foods to your dog, but I'm not convinced that their diet should consist solely of raw foods. And, as far as humanizing our pets goes, I do think that domestication makes them more susceptible to certain illnesses, diet-related or otherwise, so while they may not get salmonella, they certainly could have other problems.

[JustJo]

Do you have anything other than a hunch to support your opinion that raw food is bad for them?

I habitually give mine raw egg, raw salmon and just recently they had some raw deer meat. They've had raw pork and plenty of raw beef and raw beef fat.

Sometimes we attribute far too many human qualities to our companion animals. Dogs do not have the same digestive systems we do. Example: humans get salmonella poisoning from the salmonella bacteria on raw food such as eggs and chicken. Dogs do not -- they simply pass this bacteria through their digestive tract and it comes out in their stool. Logical conclusion: dogs can handle raw food; humans cannot.

Dogs DO get and also pass on bacterial infections. There are several articles on it but here are a few:

From vetinfo.com:

E. coli and Salmonella are bacterial infections. In most cases they are the
result of food contamination by infected workers who handle the meat during
processing. I am not aware of any studies that really quantify the risk to
dogs of these illnesses but they are frequently implicated in food poisoning
deaths in humans, we know that dogs do get infections from these bacteria
and it is therefore reasonable to assume that there is a risk which probably
approximates that of humans but may be smaller or even larger than the risk
to people. These would also be more likely to cause serious illness in an
immune compromised patient.

Mike Richards, DVM

From Norcalaussierescue:

While there have been concerns about the possibility of bacterial infections due to feeding Raw Food Diets (Bones and Raw Food, or BARF), there has only recently been evidence to support these concerns.

In a recent study, samples of foods prepared by regular BARF diet proponents and stools from their dogs were compared to a test group of dogs not on the BARF diet. These samples were tested for Salmonella spp.

Eight of the ten of the BARF-fed dogs meal samples were positive for Salmonella and 3 of the stool samples. All of the dogs fed commercial foods were negative for Salmonella in their stools. The commercial meal samples were all negative as well.

From vetmed.wisc.edu:

Salmonellosis in dogs and cats:

The severity of salmonellosis in dogs and cats varies:

subclinical carrier state (most common)
acute enterocolitis
fever, anorexia, lethargy
diarrhea, possibly with mucus or blood
abdominal pain (infection is often associated with mesenteric lymphadenitis)
Cats may present with prolonged periods of fever and anorexia without diarrhea.

One other article is too long to post but should be checked out. This guy did an actual 11 year study on raw diets in dogs.
secondchanceranch.org/rawmeat.html (http://)

In addition, it is not recommended to feed raw salmon in sushi bars Or to our pets. Another article from Dr. Richards at VetInfo:

Salmon Poisoning Disease

This is primarily a problem in the Pacific Northwest and California. But if you feed a raw meat diet it can be a problem anywhere.

It is caused from the infection by a rickettsial organism,Neorickettsia helminthoeca. SPD has been known since the early 19th century in North America. It had been observed that dogs that ate raw salmon frequently died however the connection between the fluke and the rickettsia was not established at this time.(1) It is unusual in that the rickettsial organism does not directly infect the dog but is instead carried by a parasite, a trematode (flatworm or fluke) called Nanophyteus salmincola through two intermediate hosts first: freshwater snails and salmonid fish (salmon, trout and steelhead).

Nanophyteus salmincola are found to infect freshwater snails particularly Oxytrema plicifer. The infected snail forms part of the salmonid species food web and is ingested. Neither the fluke nor the rickettsial organism act as pathogens in the fish. The dog is exposed only when it ingests the secondary host - an infected fish. After the dog ingests the fish, the encysted fluke larvae burst and embed in the dog’s intestinal tract and the rickettsia are introduced. The cycle continues when ova are excreted in dog feces to infect snails.

It is necessary for your dog to eat raw salmon to get salmon poisoning disease.

A sudden onset of symptoms occur 5-7 days after ingestion of fish.Initial symptoms include lethargy and anorexia. Peaking of temperature between 104-107 in the first two days and then slowly returns to normal. Persistent vomiting by the fourth day. There is bloody diarrhea within a few days of vomiting onset. The diarrhea is often bright yellow color. There are enlarged lymph nodes.

In the acute stages, gastrointestinal symptoms are quite similar to canine parvovirus. Nasal and ocular symptoms can resemble canine distemper. If left untreated, SPD has a mortality rate of up to 90%. Treatment is supportive to maintain hydration as well as antibiotic therapy to kill the disease producing organism. Dogs that survive are immune.

It is preventable by cooking all fish before feeding your dog. If you are outdoors hiking or camping or live near streams and rivers were salmon spawn, keep a close eye on your dog on don't let your pet run free to insure that no fish carcasses are ingested. Please see your vet immediately if you suspect your dog has ingested raw salmon.


I just don't buy into the raw diet when now there ARE good holistic dog foods available.

[Pard]

Justso: Thanks so much for all that info :) I am glad that there is some evidence to back my claims.

[bisquik]

Note that a couple of your re-posts say that salmonella bacteria is present in the stool. Not that salmonella poisoning had occurred in the GI tract. If you'd like, I'll google it too and post the sites you left out, that support what I said.

[JustJo]

As stated in what I posted the most common is the subclinical carrier state, however there are cases, however rare, where dogs do get salmonellosis themselves.

Regardless, I would not want my dogs to be carriers of bacteria like Salmonella. I wash my hands but my dogs don't and if they step in their poop with this bacteria then get on the furniture (which they do - horrors!) who's to say that I can't pick it up by touching my couch or my bed where they have been.

It is too high of a risk to me for the "supposed" benefits of feeding raw. My dogs are on Chicken Soup and my vet, who has been in practice for 21 years and has many Great Danes as patients told me that Bullwinkle looks half his age and is in the best condition of any Great Dane she has seen in all her years of practice. I took Keepher to the vet 3 days ago for her annual exam and boosters (she is being fed Innova) and this vet, who is a bit Hitler-like, gives out actual report cards at the end of the visit. He gave her an A+ and his receptionist told me that it was the first one she has seen him give in the 4 years she has worked there. SO I think all the dogs in my life are doing "pretty" well without taking unecessary risks of bacteria and digestive problems involved with raw diets.

Jo

[JustJo]

Just have to add that I am very leary about Salmonella because I was infected with it when I was 17 years old. I got it at Magic Mountain (CA) from eating a hamburger that was not cooked properly. I spent two days in the hospital and would have spent more if not for my father being a pediatrician. He was able to set up IV's and administer shots, etc. here at home.

This is NOT an infection I would wish on anyone. It is horribly painful and I have never been so sick in my life! At the time I thought I would never get over this thing. I will do anything to prevent getting Salmonella ever again.

Jo

[Magnum]

If anyone has kids and they have even a remote chance of coming in contact with the fecal material left by a raw meat fed dog, they are subject to the Salmonella.

This is NOT an infection I would wish on anyone. It is horribly painful and I have never been so sick in my life! At the time I thought I would never get over this thing. I will do anything to prevent getting Salmonella ever again.

Thanks Jo for sharing your personal experience with the bacteria. I would never put any of the kids that come to our property at risk when California Natural and Innova keep my dogs in tip-top-shape, without the worry of Salmonella.

[Pard]

I totally agree with you Jo and Magnum; thanks for sharing your experience with us.

[Miranda]

Thank you JustJo for pulling together all of the information about the dangers of raw diets. I have read quite extensively on this topic, too while trying to find a food for my dog that had chronic digestive problems. She seemed to have either vomiting or diarrhea about once a week and the vet couldn't find anything wrong to explain the reason. I tried a raw diet for a little while but it didn't seem to help and my vet didn't think it was a good idea. He said he'd heard of bone splinters in raw foods causing perforations in the stomachs & intestines of dogs.

I tried a number of foods and nothing seemed to work until I tried Flint River Ranch. It's not available in the supermarket or pet food stores. It's only available through independent distributors and is delivered directly to your home via UPS. I buy mine through www.picnicpointpets.com.

[JustJo]

Thanks Miranda. Flint River is an excellent food. The dealer I go to for Chicken Soup carries Flint River, Innova, California Natural, Canieda (sp?), and a couple of other wholesome foods that I can't name right now.

Jo

[amstaff]

i understand all the hype about not feeding a raw diet though i do not agree. i have an american staffordshire terrier and 8 cats on this diet. i educated my self after i adopted my dog who had severe allergies. she had tear stains, hot spots and pustules, was bald under her neck, belly, tail and her ears. she had anal gland problems, and would get new scabs after every meal. i had her on wellness, innova, innova evo,go, and california natural. she got no treats. finally after no help from the vets other to put her on a chemical laden presciption diet and steroid shots, i educated myself on the raw diet. my dog now has none of the problems she had before. not only does she eat venison, but because fat is so important to a dogs diet she gets organic beef, chicken, turkey, groundhog, and beaver. since she has allergies she does not get grains. since meat is so high in phospherous, i make sure she gets RAW bones or eggshells in every meal to keep the calcium/phospherous ratio appropriette. i do not believe that we have changed the inside of our animals so much that they can now only eat highly processed foods. i still recommend wellness and innova to our clients who dont have the time to prepare raw. but i just dont believe its an equivalent substitute. even my new vet is looking into the raw diet and what his beliefs were before have changed from seeing how healthy my animals are inside and out.

[amstaff]

i forgot to list some great websites in helping you to switch to raw or even to help you figure out the best processed kibble for your pet.

dogaware.com
holisticat.com
shirleys-wellness-cafe.com

[ilovemydogs]

I think every food has its own certain ups and downs and while the raw food diet may work wonders for that dog, it may be completely fatal to the next dog. My dogs get fed Innova as my family is a very organic family. But the only reason we do not feed them anything else is because Abby, my Sheltie, has a very sensitive stomach and Innova was the only food she could keep down with out diarhea or vomiting. Katie, my Rat Terrier, can eat anything and everything wether it is healthy or not, She ate the bark of a tree for cryin out loud! They get alot of little treats during the day because I can't help but feed them little pieces of my food. I am not against the raw food diet as I've had freinds that have fed their dogs raw food and I babysat a dog who was on the raw diet. It was kind of gross to hear her snapping the bones out in the yard but if you can handle that and it is a healthy choice for your dog then the more power to you! If my dogs cant handle any other diet than the raw diet then I'll feed it to them but I'm not going to go searching it out. It will be my last resort after I try other foods. Everyone has a right to voice their own opinions just like every one has the right to eat what they want and feed their dogs what they want. I would suggest trying other foods before the raw meat diet but that is just me. I would hope that as long as the dog does not have any sorts of problems related to their diet then they should just continue eating and being happy! And there are my two cents.

[Pard]

I do not begrudge the use of raw foods to anyone who wants to use them for pet consumption; I just wouldn't go out of my way to feed it to my dogs since they do fine on a kibble diet. The risk of food poisoning and salmonella are too great for me, and cost is another issue. Meat is expensive enough for a family let alone a daily meal for my dogs. It's not that I don't consider my dogs family, I do, so I feed them to best kibble diet I can without spending an arm and a leg.

[amstaff]

i feed a 50lb dog and 8 cats for under $50 a month. i use local farmers who i know are organic and who i get a mad discount for buying in bulk. my dog eats 1lb of food a day and my cats eat 2-3 tbs per meal. im not at all against kibble, we recommend innova and wellness to our clients who simply cannot do raw or homecooked, but its just hard for me to truly believe that animals or people can get much nutrition out of something that has been cooked at such high temps. and would we be happy eating 100% complete total cereal and water the rest of our lives?

[Pard]

Your lucky you know someone who grows organic and gives you discounts. I live in the city and don't have that kind of luxury. Anywa, I feed my dogs Canidae dry and wet food mixed together so it's more palatable, but I've heard that dogs have so few taste buds that taste is not that big a deal for them. That probably explains why they eat their own poop and many other foul things like garbage :confused:

[Magnum]

And they love Kitty Kandy...... :eek: What is with that?

[JustJo]

I am very familiar with both Innova and Wellness and they are both excellent dog foods. I feed Chicken Soup For The Dog Lover's Soul, which is a holistic, slow-cooked dog kibble. The first four ingredients are : Chicken, Duck, Chicken Meal, Duck Meal. Can't call that 100% cereal. Neither can you call Innova or Wellness that. Innova is also slow-cooked to ensure consistant nutrient quality. It's first three ingredients are: Turkey, Chicken, Chicken Meal.
Wellness is slow cooked and it's first ingredients are either Chicken or Hormone Free lamb. I don't believe any of these products contain wheat, corn or soy, although some of them do contain barley and/or brown rice.

There are many, many great super-premium dog kibbles out there now. There are even all organic ones available. I honestly don't want to pick on you amstaff but to write off all dog kibble as being "100% cereal" or "cooked at high temps" and therefore losing all nutritional value is simply just not the fact.

[amstaff]

in regards to the cereal bit, i just meant that it would be similar to us having no variety in our diet. i realize there are many different views on how to feed our animals, but i do believe in variety. there has been new studies done that when you feed kibble, you should switch between 2-3 high quality foods so your pet gets optimum nutrition. i realize in certain health situations we cant always do that. but we have been consistently taught not to switch our pet foods. also on the cereal bit, total says its 100% nutritionally complete, as do the pet foods. again i recommend high quality kibble to our clients. i am on the phone with michelle who is anthony bennys secretary at natura, about once a week and though their food is slowcooked, it is not cooked under 108 degrees which any heat above starts destroying nutrients.

[JustJo]

I'd be very interested in seeing these new studies that recommend switching your dog food around to provide proper nutrition. I'd also like to see some studies that prove feeding raw is better for your dog than feeding a super premium food. To convince me these studies would have to be controlled, using scientific method, and performed by a non-biased group of professional vets and canine nutritionists. They would also have to have been performed over a good length of time in order to be legitimate. I will write Natura and inquire about all the nutrition lost in their processing, since they guarantee consistent nutrional quality in their products, and since I have my Mom's dog on Innova this certainly concerns me.

[amstaff]

i agree that testing the raw diet would be wonderful so people could see how wonderful their dogs will look and act. pet food has only been around for about 100 years. it became popular about 60 years ago. since then we have been taught to only feed processed food that doesnt even look like food when its done. why do you think vets recommend a bland diet when your pet is sick? it is because the food and nutrients are easily assimilated. and there are so many dogs, like mine who are allergic to meat in dog foods but can eat those same meats raw. i realize that if you dont have a recipe to follow when starting out you can do much harm. that is why there are recipes out there from reputable sources. alfred plechner, and dr.richard pitcairn have some great ones out there.

[Magnum]

Amstaff, why recommend a product to your clients, then turn around and basically put it down saying it is cereal, bland, has the nutrition cooked out of it, etc. here? I have looked at alfred plechner and dr.richard pitcairn, and they are selling a product...theirs. :confused: Dr. Pitcairn's opinion on Raw Diet is just that, his opinion. No statistics, no studies, just "I have noticed this or that". Alfred Plechner is selling a book. That's it? I am really stretching here and trying stay interested in the HYPE, but that is about all it has been so far. Help us out here with some studies, statistics, you know....the stuff that backs up and sets things in concrete, not just opinions. :)

[amstaff]

i feel that way about pet food they are just trying to sell a product. my opinion on the matter is this : proferred method of feeding is raw. second-homecooked and third premium kibble like innova or wellness.

new choices in natural healing for dogs and cats
by amy d. shojai and the editors of prevention for pets

page 67

each time yourcat ambushes a bird or your dog snaps up a gopher, they are tasting life as their ancestors experienced it-raw.many holistic vets believe this is still the best approach to their diets.
cooking can destroy vital nutrients and make meats harder to digest, says dr.swift. raw beef, for example, has considerably more taurine,an essential amino acid for cats, than cooked beef does. in addition, heat may change the molecular structure of foods, he says, making it harder for enzymes in the body to break down proteins. this results in incomplete digestion,which puts strain on the entire body.
"we know that there are problems with things like e.coli, salmonella, and parasites in raw meat," adds dr. scanlan. to get the benefits of a raw-meat diet while reducing the risks, she recommends using only fresh meat, keeping it refrigerated before serving it to your pets.(avoid using raw pork or fish, which may contain parasites) you can also rinse raw meat with food-grade hydrogen peroxide, mixing a tsp. of peroxide in aquart of water. or you can lightly steam or boil the meat, says dr.schoen.
"a healthy digestive tract has many natural defenses," adds dr.swift. "remember, animals have been eating raw foods forever. the risks of processed foods are much greater."

dr. pitcairn's complete guide to natural health for dogs and cats
by richard h. pitcairn,dvm,phd & susan hubble pitcairn

pages 14-15

one of the most facinating sources of information about the importance of raw foods comes from what is now known as the pottenger cat studies. dr. pottenger did not set out to studt cat nutrition, but he became intrigued by differences in the health of a number of cats he was using in experimental studies. turning his attention to this topic, he did a serious of nutritional comparisons. for several generations one group of cats was fed completely raw food(meat, bones, milk and cod-liver oil).another group of cats was fed the same foods either partially or completely cooked. what he found is of definate importance to those of us who want to raise really healthy pets.

-cats on the entirely raw food diet were completely healthy,never needing veterinary attention.
-the more food was cooked, the less healthy were the cats that ate it.
-the health problems seen in the experimental cats on the cooked diet were remarkably like those commonly seen in cats today-mouth and gum problems,thyroid disorders, bladder inflammation and the like.
-over a period of three generations, the cats on the cooked food diet continued to deteriorate until they could no longer reproduce.
-when the cats were put back on a raw food diet, it was not until four generations later that the animals totally recovered from the effects of the cooked diet.

why is this? foods are so complex that there is still much we dont understand about them. researchers have discoverd, for example, that cats require a dietary source os taurine, an amino acid that many mammals , including humans, can synthesize. taurine, found only in animal tissues, is largely destroyed by cooking. one study shows that an average of 52% of the taurine in raw meats is lost through baking and an average of 79% through boiling. as a result of processing, many commercial cat foods once had low levels of taurine. now it is added to cat foods and supplements.
in caring for our own cats, my wife and i came to the conclusion that we would rather not wait for more discoveries. instead, we would rather be cautious, choosing to feed our cats a diet that most closely resembles that of their evolutionary history.(when the meat is fed raw as recommended, by the way, calculations show that our recipes for cats contain taurine in amounts comparable to taurine in the wild diet.)

the whole dog journal
april 2005

page 6

as another example, there have been reports of foods found to contain levels of taurine that proved too low to prevent the development of cardiomyopathy in consumer's dogs- AFTER passing feeding trials. and the protocols dont address the unique nutritional needs of breeds that are prone to genetic disorders that require specific nutritional therapy, such as bedlington terriers(which require adiet especially low in copper and high in zinc.)

the article from whole dog journal was actually printed to educate on pet feeding trials. it was entitled-on trial, the truth about pet food feeding trials.

www.dogaware.com
www.holisticat.com
www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com
www.b-naturals.com
www.petmedicinechest.com
www.switchingtoraw.com

[Pard]

It seems that most of the real in-depth research was performed on cats. Since this is a dog forum I think we should focus on dog nutrition. Some may say that it doesn't matter but I disagree. Dogs and cats are two completely different animals, and in my opinion dogs are much more domesticated than cats. I don't have any book quotes or scientific evidence to back that up, but it seems that feral cats exist much more often world-wide and can become almost wildcat-like where as feral dogs still seem to be drawn to humans by instinct even though they are feral. I still maintain the belief that the domestication of dogs has affected their whole body function/system. You can't tell me that thousands of years worth of evolution and change hasn't had some affect on their digestive system especially since living with humans usually leads to eating primarily cooked meat. As far as dog food being bland is concerned, I would imagine that kibble is more tasteful than raw meat because it has been cooked in broths and meals. I accidentally ate something that was raw when I was little and remember thinking how bland it was. the only thing I can't argue with is that eating bones and egg shell is probably really good for their dental hygiene. If raw bones weren't so messy I would give them to my dogs; I just don't want all that bacteria spreading in my house. Even the cooked bones that they sell for dogs are messy; like the ones with BBQ flavor and stuff (eeewww). Anyway, I mean no offense whatsoever in my posts; I am simply stating my opinion. I will be the first to admit it's just an opinion and often times very unscientific, but I can't help believing what I believe :o

[Magnum]

I would have posted this, but there are 32 references of where all the information comes from.

http://secondchanceranch.org/rawmeat_crane.html

[Pard]

Magnum- I read the ENTIRE article you posted and found it very fascinating. I feel much more confident in my opinions now, thanks.

[JustJo]

Thanks Magnum for the info. I had posted a link earlier in this thread to that site also because this guy did an actual 11 year study and has data to support it. Some other valuable points made:

Who is Advocating Raw Meat for Dogs?

The raw meat 'theory' has been made popular by a few vets-turned authors such as Ian Billinghurst and Dr. Pitcairn. From there, many other holistic vets who put their trust into these authors have exuberantly promoted the concept. These authors have created a significant paranoia - to the point where people are afraid to cook their food or purchase any commercial food products. Interestingly, most people following this diet only apply the logic to their dog's diet and continue eating cooked foods themselves.

They are contradicting what the great majority of veterinarians and qualified animal nutritionists have determined to be true. I have not met anyone who could provide scientific data to support these claims.

Sadly, many of the discussions on the barf message boards are about how ill the dogs are from raw meat/bones. People who are new to feeding B.A.R.F. are told that symptoms such as bloody diarrhea, choking on raw bones, and other health problems are perfectly normal, as their dogs are "purging" toxins. I receive numerous emails from people who have left these lists due to their dogs becoming very ill or actually dieing from the barf or other raw meat diets.

The makers of raw meat diets sold in pet stores that I have met are not vets, and do not have a science/microbiology background nor experience in the practice of veterinary medicine. They have been salesman, groomers, or simply dog owners. Their information seems to be wholly derived from those books written concerning the raw meat diets without examining the subject in a critical way. And, there are others that act as nutrition consultants... bearing in mind that "Nutrition Specialist" is a meaningless title with no certification required. I don't say this to insult anyone, but it is something that consumers should be aware of.

Unfortunately, the raw meat diet manufacturers and authors of books providing home-made diet recipes base their opinions on the concept of what they assume is the "wild dog diet". They seem to disregard the hard scientifically proven facts and statistics about the typical health of a wild dog due to it's diet, and injury and deaths to both wild and domestic dogs directly related to consumption of raw meat and bones.

[Magnum]

Great post Jo! ;) I am for anything that will benefit an animal, but I won't use my baby as a testing tool just because someone has written a book.

[JustJo]

The other day I sent an e-mail to Natura inquiring about the nutrient loss in their dog food due to cooking and processing. I received a very nice e-mail yesterday evening from Rory Tharp, Supervisor of Customer Relations at Natura. He assured me that all natura dog foods are well above the standards set and sent me an assay of all natura dog foods performed AFTER cooking and processing. I then spent my Friday night studying and educating myself on these nutrients. I felt like I was back in my college chemistry class - LOL! Anyway, I compared the Natura assay with two documents. One is the Board on Agriculture's Nutrient Requirements of Dogs:



Warning...this is a huge study to go over but if you put the effort in it is worth it to educate yourself on the different nutrients and what they do and how they work in the body.

The other being the AAFCO's Minimum Nutrient for Adult Maintenance:

[URL=]http://petplace.netscape.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=3425 (]http://www.nap.edu/books/0309034965/html/1.html[/URL)

I will try and attach the Natura Assay but I think it might be too big to attach. Bottom line is that all Natura products, after cooking, far exceed any studied and published nutrient requirements for dogs without going over the maximum established. They even have nutrients, vitamin K for instance, that have no recommended amounts. The senior and puppy foods have glucosamine and chondroitin which also have no recommended amounts.

My eyes are crossed this morning but it was worth the effort in order to assure myself that Keepher IS receiving all the nutrients, and more, established by veterinary nutritionists, etc. to maintain excellent health.
I am going to do the same for Chicken Soup but I already know that it will be the same type data.

Just tried to attach the assay from Natura but it is too big. If you would like to see it PM me and I can e-mail it to you.

Jo

[Magnum]

Great job Jo!! I even looked at the Bird section of the Petplace. Lot of great info on nutrition and where to get it from, naturally. Now to get Bullet to stop terrorizing her playtop liner.....lol. It's raining bits of paper on my head.... :p

[Codykins]

One of the benefits with a raw meat diet is you know exactly what is going into the animal. However, a drawback is you also can end up with a malnourished pet! Good nutrition is far more than feeding your animal enough to keep it from getting too thin. Cats for example are far more carnivorous than dogs. The type of raw diet you would use for a cat would not give a dog what it needs. According to Give Your Dog a Bone by Dr. Ian Billinghurst, a raw diet for a dog consists of 60% raw, meaty bones. The other 40% is a variety of foods to balance: green vegetables, eggs, milk and organ meats (liver, heart, kidneys, etc).

Feeding a raw diet is far more than hitting your local grocery store and tossing dear meat and carrots your pet’s way! Proper nutrition involves knowing what your pet needs to be healthiest in regards to protein, fat, carbohydrates, fiber, various vitamins and minerals, etc. Deficiencies in any of these can lead to serious problems down the road. For example, if a cat lacks taurine, he can end up with vision problems. Some breeds of dog are prone to bladder stones and some stones may have a protein-related basis. Too much protein can be bad for these dogs. If you wish to properly feed a raw diet, you need to take the time to understand the intricacies of animal nutrition based on species.

[amstaff]

i agree. if youre just starting out with a raw or home-cooked diet, you must get some recipes to follow. for those that are scared or just want to add more variety, you can always add some meat and veggies to their kibble. just remember that dogs on a cancer diet that doesn't include grains, shouldnt eat starchy veggies either. the sugars feed the cancer.

[Milbrose]

I do feed a raw diet.... have for over five years..... I am a vegetarian, if someone had told me I would be scooping chicken necks I would ahve told them they were nuts.

However, I do have a boy that has an irritable bowel like issue and at 5 mos. he started having bloody stool.... we did all the vet tests.... we did the fasting, the hamburg/chicken and rice thing...... and what we found is that his system settled down but the second we introduced any kind of kibble he went immediately back to bloody stool..... he had been weaned onto innova.... and that is what he was on when he had the bloody "dire rear" . We tried prescription diet We tried flint river, we tried hund n flockn or something like that.... we tried Canidae .... we tried nupro, sensible choice....wysong.... there was nothing left to try. It was months I bought and returned bags of dog food like crazy. I had several friends who were feeding raw but I gotta say the whole idea grossed me out. California Natural was the only kibble he could tolerate at all and he still had very soft stool and periodically would go back to bloody "dire rear".

However, the woman at the local dog food store had these raw premade burgers that she said were pretty popular amongst the raw food sect and why not give it a shot..... by now this dog had been on and off hamburg/chicken and rice for about 4 mos. not healthy for a growing boy.

I tried the burger and within two days his stool was solid and more normal than I had seen it in months. He is now a mature handsome boy and he has had just one spell of bloody stool, when he stole food from a bag of canidae.

Now my issue is that whenever brings up raw diet.... it always becomes a debate about how terrible is raw..... ya know what..... raw diet is not for everyone. Personally I dont care what anyone feeds their dogs.... however, I do not understand why as soon as a raw diet is mentioned it becomes fodder for debate. If you want to feed raw feed raw, I can tell you that in five years I have not had a problem with impactions, infections anything....I have weaned puppies onto raw and three of my dogs have never eaten kibble. They have grown normally and we have gotten hip, elbow, patella, thyroid clearances back and they are all normal...... my last litter was weaned onto raw and the puppy folks were encouraged to keep them on raw... although I gave them a list of preferred kibbles. They could choose a kibble from my list if they wanted to.... I had one family with a young child that I thought might want to feed kibble and that would make sense to me.... but ya know what.... they are still feeding raw... they just keep the baby away from the dog food.... which really the baby shouldn't be bugging the puppy while he eats anyway.

This morning my dogs had canned mackeral for breakfast because I forgot to take meat out of the freezer.... (a regular occurance in my house). Last night they had ground beef and some baked beans..... they regularly eat chicken necks (the only whole meat that I feed) and oatmeal..... They get veggies every day..... and no I don't let them kiss me after they have eaten grossssss

But is it possible to just acknowlege that what works for one dog might not necessarilly work for another. I respect your decision to feed kibble wihtout attacking you..... and I could have alot to say about kibble. I think that folks should also respect my decision to feed my dogs how I see fit as well without the debate.

JMHO for an early friday morning
s

[RWDVM]

Hey guys, since I touched on this in the Lyme disease vaccine thread and you know where I stand based on having managed far too many cases of bacterial GI disease from the raw diet, I will try not to belabour the point.

I just wanted to mention that Pard early in the thread touched on something that is very significant, that this diet was based on the notion that dogs were physiologically the same as wolves, and wolves thrive on uncooked meat. It is important to keep in mind, however, that domestic dogs are not infact tamer versions of the wolf. The difference in DNA between the domestic dog and the wolf is 1%. This may not seem like very much, but it is the same difference in DNA that separates humans from chimpanzees.

This leads to many differences in physiology, the most significant for this topic being that the gastric pH of a wolf is much lower than most dogs. A more acidic environment contributes to a greater ability to fend off the offending bacteria that often infiltrate raw meat.

For those of you that state that you have not had any problems with feeding raw meat to your dogs, I don't dispute that you are sincere and that this is infact true. Nor am I suggesting that you necessarily stop. However, before raw meat infectious disease awareness made the headlines, there were many people that swore by blood rare hamburgers for years that ultimately ended up one day contracting hemorrhagic e. coli infestation.

By this I am not suggesting by any means that your pet is guaranteed serious infectious consequences from feeding raw meat. Statistically, however, you place your pet in a much higher risk category for infectious disease by feediing raw meat. I just don't see the justifiction for that risk when we live in a time where all natural, preservative free, organic, etc. , wonderful pet foods are at our disposal.

Finally, I will certainly concede that Milbrose makes a valid point that what works for one dog, may not work for another, raw diet included. I just want to make clear that I have seen first hand too often for my liking, that when the raw food diet is not right for a particular dog, the consequences could be dangerous. rw

[Milbrose]

RW again you missed the point of my post.......

the issue is to respect others decisions......

the original post did not ask people opinions on raw.... she didn't say sooooo I am thinking of changing to a raw diet what do you all think????

yet it turned into a debate about the merits of a raw diet......

nobody asked opinions......


when someone says soooo how many of you feed kibble..... raw diet people don't jump into the thread and start discussing the issues behind kibble .... and there are issues.

the point is to respect others choices...... and by your spouting off about how terrible raw diet is (not that your opinion matters over here anyway)

you have just reconfirmed what I was saying in the post you responded to.
m

[RWDVM]

Milbrose, I actually wasn't responding to your post specifically, but to the thread in general, which started in one direction, but ended up expanding into a general discussion (as our threads so often do). If I recall, the only reference I made to your post was in pointing out a valid point you had made.

If my experience leaves me inclined to conclude that something is potentially dangerous for animals, it is not only my right, but my duty as a veterinarian to disseminate this information. All are welcome to accept it or dismiss it as they wish, but there is no need to take such offense to my comments and experiences, just because they are contrary to what you think.

You write about respect for other's decisions and in the same sentence tell me that my opinions don't matter. Well, I will not participate in repricating your verbal attacks, as these forums are not about slinging mud at oneanother, but about being exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints that our animals may benefit from. rw

[amstaff]

i also respect peoples opinions on what to feed. this is why i also recommend super premium food to clients. i do not feel as though im a hypocrite. not everybody has time to feed raw or homecooked. so instead of sending them blindly into a grocery store, we give them options. my previous 2 vets did not even know what wellness or innova was. they recommended purina or science diet. we even sell spots stew by halo pet products where i work. and the study about switching dry dog foods was in the whole dog journal awhile back. thats a publication that cares about educating the public on natural dog food/health. and if i would never have adopted dollie, i would probably still be bashing the raw/homecooked diet. i just had to try something to save her. maybe we could start a new thread on the dangers of raw for those who still want to talk about it and save this for the raw feeders. :)

[SunConure]

dogs are classified as omnivores. They can survive on a diet of either plant or animal origin if it is balanced and diverse. But to thrive and not merely survive, dogs should have a source of animal protein - MEAT - in their diets. There is a huge difference between survive and thrive! Nature made the rules of biochemistry and nutrition and we mortals have no power (and no business, for that matter) to try to bend those rules. For that reason there are truly no adequate vegetarian diets for cats. For that reason dogs thrive on diets based on meat.

Every single day in practice I see dogs that are not thriving because Nature's rules are not being followed. Overweight dogs, dogs with itchy, flaky skin, dogs with coarse and brittle coats, dogs with poor energy levels and resistance to infection. . . 95% of the time these dogs will be consuming diets low in animal origin tissues and high in grain-based products. Inexpensive, corn-based diets are some of the worst.

on the news couple months back here they were saying commercial diets are one of the worst to be fed.Also i've been asking breeders about feeding and dog biscuits are high in fat and not good for dogs to eat everyday.Dogs need meat in there diet and fish they need protien and fish and meat is what has protein in it.Never feed cooked meat to a dog they can not digest cooked meat there for it rots in the dogs stomach and they get an infection and i know cause its happened to my dog.Dogs should have 10% raw meat 5% dry dog food 85% veggie matter in there diets this has come from my vet.

Tell me this would you eat commercial food yourself everyday of the week until you die? I know i wouldn't i cook my meals and make sure i get what i need.Every dog is different in there diet its just a matter how much you love your dog and how much your willing to spend on your dog.

If wild dogs can survive in the wild without vaccinations i'm sure captive ones can.You know the booster vaccination is the diease put into the dog all you need is the puppy vaccinations done and your dog will be fine no more vaccinations needed.All the vaccinations is the diease if done the puppy vaccinations would have boosted the immune system.Read this site it is very helpfull http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/health/common/vaccinations.html

Heres a site of the best food to feed your dog http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/health/common/feeding.html heres the second best food to feed your dog http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/health/common/feeding2.html

Like they say would you feed your dog something you wouldn't eat.It depends on how willing you are to provide the best for your dogs.Or how much your willing to spend to keep your dog healthy.People say its a good idea to brush a dogs teeth in the wild dogs brush there teeth by chewing on raw bones and sticks.So why should we change it just cause they were bred in captivity.

[dlaura]

Milbrose - I have to ask you if have followed RWDVM over here from another board?

RESPECT is a very important thing but it works BOTH ways and here on petlovers we respect others opinions also. We do not have to agree with them or practice them, but neither do we have to riducule, belittle or tell someone their opinions don't matter here. If they don't matter to you so be it, but please let others form their own opinions.

[Milbrose]

actually I dont know RWDVM from adam.... I have no clue what his history on other boards is.... all I know is that I absolutely don't agree with or trust his advice from just what I have seen on this board from the short time I have been here. It scares me when someone belittles others .... thinks they know everything ..... and throws letters around like it makes them more important and more knowlegable than others.

I have never been on a board with RWDVM, I don't spend alot of time bouncing around bulletin boards.

But if he has had issues on other boards, that doesn't surprise me at all.
M

[dlaura]

RW again you missed the point of my post.......
the issue is to respect others decisions......

##### Guess the same thing goes for you as you missed my point also Milbrose.


the original post did not ask people opinions on raw.... she didn't say sooooo I am thinking of changing to a raw diet what do you all think????

######### Neither do I think the original poster wanted to see Yes, No, Yes, No, No, No all the way down 4 pages of responses. There was an implied ? there.


yet it turned into a debate about the merits of a raw diet......
nobody asked opinions......

##### Guess you need to be informed that it takes more then one to debate + you =2.

when someone says soooo how many of you feed kibble..... raw diet people don't jump into the thread and start discussing the issues behind kibble .... and there are issues.

###### Maybe not as of yet, but crazier things have happened here.

the point is to respect others choices...... and by your spouting off about how terrible raw diet is (not that your opinion matters over here anyway)

###### Do unto others as you would have done onto you. So is this what you consider resepect?

you have just reconfirmed what I was saying in the post you responded to.
m

Now I will say maybe you have such a problem with the vet is because you see yourself in him Milbrose. At this point I am going to close this thread as it is now just defeating it's purpose. It is threads like these that make people afraid to ask ?s here. In case I need to spell it out in black and white --- I was actually taking the view that you were doing the non-respect and belittling here Milbrose. If you need to continue this bickering with the Dr. then please take it to his blog / website.