How many of you will consider hysterectomy ...

[Amanda]

for your birds (females)? I have been really worried about egg binding and chronic egg laying lately. My lovebird (whom I thought was a male until a couple of weeks ago) has laid 2 eggs so far. I thought she's done with her egg-laying for this season but I noticed that she's displaying the same signs again (decreased appetite, refusing to come out of her cage, shredding newspaper from the bottom of her cage & stuffing the paper strips under her feathers, etc). Bijou is 1 year old and I'm worried that she might turn into a chronic egg layer.

Some of you probably think I'm being such a worry-wart but I've lost 2 female cockatiels to due to chronic egg laying (one of them died due to the stress her constant egg laying did to her body) and one died of egg-binding. I'm very worried that this may happen to Bijou. Anyway, I read that budgies, cockatiels and lovebirds are prone to chronic egg laying and egg binding.

I was doing some reading and read that there are several ways to stop a hen from laying. Some of the examples given were to cut their "day time hours" by covering the cage earlier and moving their cage to a different part of the house where they will not hear any sounds or see anyone. It was suggested that less contact with the bird will be better because sometimes the birds bond so strongly with their owners that the birds consider the humans as their mate. So, any head scratches or physical interactions will trigger the hens to lay eggs. I don't like this option because it means that I'll be spending less time with my birds (since I usually spend the evenings with them). I really enjoy interacting with both Bijou & Rio and can't see that either I or them will be happy in this type of situation where there will be minimal physical contact.

The other option is to give them hormone therapy, this option has some bad effects due to the hormone that the birds will receive...and it's also very expensive. I'm not sure how many times the hormones will be given, so if it's once a month, I can just imagine how much it will be by the end of the year.

The other option is to remove the oviduct and uterus of the hens. This may be an expensive surgery to begin with, but I think in the long run it will be much less expensive than the hormone therapy. And best of all, I won't have to worry about how much physical contact there is or of isolating them in another room and not spending as much time with them.

Just want to know what everyone's thoughts on these are. I have not talked to my vet about any of this yet and just wanted to get some feedback from you guys.

[Mrs.Birdy]

Amanda: That sounds so drastic. Ask your vet about the risks to little Bijou. Being a nurse yourself, I am sure you know surgery is always risky.

Personally, I would continue to rearrange her cage, move it to another location, sleep earlier, etc. Have you tried Nestling formula food or Avilac stress formula food, it seemed to help Snickers during her egg laying time. (I am not sure if you are the one who told me about these special foods, but I did hear about them on this board).

And then again, you have had some bad experiences before....yes, this is a hard one for you to decide.

Good luck.

[Amanda]

Mrs.Birdy: I know that any surgery is risky (especially for tiny babies like Bijou). I'm just so worried about this whole egg-laying business. I'm beginning to think that I've got some kind of bad luck ... because I keep getting female birds. :(

My very first cockatiel lived to be only 7 yrs old and she had lost so much weight because no matter what I did (gave her vitamins, fed her a variety of good foods, gave her nesting food, etc...) she continued to lay eggs. The vet didn't mention to me then about any of the procedures I've mentioned above, so I didn't even know they existed or what the vet's thought of them.

My second female cockatiel lived to be only 1.5 yrs. old. She laid her first clutch of eggs without problems but then she became egg-bound the second time around.

It really broke my heart when I lost my two cockatiel hens. I know their lifespan is suppose to be anywhere from 15-20 yrs ... yet, neither one of them lived to be anywhere near that.

Casegura: I have rearranged Bijou's cage two weeks ago right after she laid those 2 eggs. I took the old toys from her cage and gave her new one and also changed the height and position of her perches. As much as I hate the thought of moving her to another room and covering her cage earlier, I guess that's what I have to do. I'm going to miss spending time with her ... but I would rather that than her getting so sick from all this egg laying business.

P.S. She laid another egg early this morning! :(

[Love Bird B]

Hi Amanda,

I'm going through the same thing with my lovebird. I had read about hormone shots being an answer to the broody hen syndrome, but a vet advised me against it, and instead said Perky should 'go through the motions.' Well, she's been doing nothing else but going through the motions! Right now she's laid her fourth egg. This was after a series of other laid eggs that she sat on for months until I thought she was over her 'motions' then.

I feel bad at the thought of getting her shots (because I don't like them, lol) so a hysterectomy would be out of the question! Hormone therapy however sounds like it could be done without shots, or is it just wishful thinking on my part?

I've already re-arranged her cage but I haven't moved her to a different spot yet, which is my next plan.

Please keep us posted on your hen's status and I'll do the same. It's interesting, this very problem was what brought me to this website!

[Amanda]

I fixed a corner in the bedroom today for Bijou's cage. I decided that I will keep her cage out in our livingroom for most of the day but at night (8 pm), I will take her to the bedroom to sleep. I've also started to cover her cage. I hope this will work. I haven't rearranged her cage because she refuses to come out ... and there's no way she'll let me rearrange without attacking my hand. I can change her food/water bowls and her extra treat bowl, but she does the lunging action (but doesn't bite). I don't know what she'll do to me if I keep my hand in her cage for a long time (to take her toys and perches off) though.

[Love Bird B]

Amanda,

When Perky was given to me she came with a sturdy pair of leather gloves. She loves the gloves! She'll allow me to pet her with them on and will latch on to them when I give her fresh food and water and get debris out of the bottom of her cage. I've gotten bitten one too many times without them when she's in this state, which is constant right now. She has no idea how fragile she is. She attacks as if she thinks she were a T-Rex! It's comical -when wearing gloves. You're so lucky yours doesn't bite!!

[Jenny]

How many eggs has Bijou laid so far? If it's not too many, I dont' know how worried I'd get yet. Of course, it's great to think ahead though. I don't know if changing cages would be of any help... Possibly... I've read about the hysterectomy for birds, but it seems like it'd be hard to find any vet who coudl do it because the equipment is sooo expensive. Also, there's other complications that can result from the surgery. I have an article about this whole issue that I'll try to find and re-read again, then post whatever would be helpful.

[Amanda]

Jenny: Bijou laid 2 eggs a couple of weeks ago but she didn't sit on them or anything. Actually, she broke both of them so since I couldn't leave them in her cage like that, I cleaned her cage and rearranged her toys/perches. I read that a normal clutch for lovebirds range from 4-6 eggs. Anyway, I think Bijou wasn't finished laying her eggs but had to stop because I cleaned and rearranged her cage. She's laid another egg this time, and I'm hoping that she gets this done and over with real soon.

If you can post the highlights of the article, it would be really great! Thanks.

[Amanda]

Casegura: Does this mean that she will lay 2 more eggs to replace the other 2 that broke ... or will she be starting from the beginning again?

Thanks for the tip about buying those fake eggs at the arts & crafts/hobby store. I'll do that tomorrow.

[Love Bird B]

I gave Perky a Jordon Almond that she sat on for awhile, but then she'll sit on anything if it's anywhere near the right size and shape for an egg. Right now she's sitting on four eggs and a fruit puff.

[dlaura]

Amanda,
Where is Bijou laying her eggs? We had the same problem with Tweety (parakeet) a few years ago. Jason had put something similiar to a log which hung horizontally in her cage. She proceeded to hollow it out and low and behold 4-5 eggs.
She was a great mom - she only popped out of the log to eat/drink and potty. She sat on those eggs for about 3-4 weeks - as we had been told not to get rid of them until she clued us.

When she did - Jason took her into another room and I removed the eggs. A while later -within a week I think - she laid 2-3 more eggs. I was concerned she was depleting her body by doing this. So, again with advice from our pet store, we removed the log in which she was laying her eggs - no more eggs since.


One of the other things I learned is that a bird will only lay eggs when she is sure there is enough food and water available to be able to sustain herself and babies. So, we also returned to her original quantity of food she would eat prior to this and it did the trick.

Also, during this time - when you interact with your bird - remember not to stroke her down the back of head along neck and back area, because this also stimulates the hormonal thing.

[Love Bird B]

Hi Dsimko,

I know I've been doing something wrong. Perky laid her 5th egg and I called the vet. All that was suggested was that to darken her living area to simulate winter. I do pet her all the time though just where you mentioned not to while she's shredding paper out of her cage. It's the only time she allows me to touch her because nothing deters or distracts her from nest building. Thanks for that info.

I think I'm going to get her another cage with wheels that can be moved around so I put her in whole new environment. Has anyone tried this tactic? -The Old Change the Cage with Wheels Trick?

[dlaura]

Hi Love Bird B,
You are welcome - I hope the info helps. Remember to remove whatever she is nesting in - I think that was the big thing for Tweetie. It seemed awful to allow Tweetie to keep laying eggs and care for them - when they were not fertile anyway. How frustrating for all!

[JSimko]

Surgery on birds is more risky than with larger animals, because with larger mammals the lungs will operate independently of the brain. We breath without thinking about it. A bird on the other hand, should it get knocked out or lose conciousness other than just sleeping it will stop breathing and it is just about impossible to do CPR on a bird. If they forget to breath and do not have something doing it for them they will die.

[Love Bird B]

Thanks Diane!

My name's Barb but B is fine, along with anything else, LOL.

Perky constantly shreds paper for her nest, but it's what I've read lovebirds do. "They're natural shredders." I get rid of my junkmail by giving it to her. We tried to divert her attention from shredding when she was first given to us, but it just made her frustrated. She seems happier sitting on dud eggs. Maybe I can get her interested in other things when her new cage arrives? I'm going to put new toys and anything else that I hope distracts her from laying another egg.

[JSimko]

Anytime I ever see lovebirds in a pet store they are chewing on the paper and under it as well. I am not sure why they never sit in the open on their perches.

[dlaura]

Barb,
What kind of cage are you getting for your lovebird - you mentioned getting a new cage? How is it going.........has your lovebird laid any eggs yet? What is the lovebird's name?

I probably should know this from previous posts - but am to lazy to go all the way back - hope you don't mind refreshing my memory.

[Amanda]

Hi Diane, sorry it's taken me so long to respond to your post but I've been busy with schoolwork lately. Anyway, thanks for the advice about not petting Bijou too much. I must confess that I have been doing a lot of that with her lately because I always feel guilty because she won't come out of her cage ... so I thought that a good compensation would be to give her head scratches through the cage bars (which she allows me to do and loves). Maybe by doing that, I was actually encouraging her nesting behavior (although I wasn't consciously doing it).

Update on Bijou: She now has 3 eggs at the bottom of her cage. Even though I move her cage to the bedroom and cover it at around 8:00 pm every night, she has continued to lay eggs. She doesn't sit on them though, and she has laid them all in different parts of her cage. She still refuses to come out of her cage and even when I offer a dowel/perch for her to "step up" on, she just walks away from it. I have stopped giving her head scatches (but feel so bad that I am not interacting with her as much as I used to). I read that a normal clutch should be between 4-6 eggs ... so I'm going to leave all the eggs in her cage and hopefully, once she lays them all, this will be it for this year. (I've got all my fingers, toes, and eyes crossed...)

[dlaura]

Hi Amanda,
I thought you might be busy with school work. You're welcome for the advice -- although it doesn't sound as if you have a breeding box or anything in the cage which you can take out.
What a dilemma.

I hope she stops laying eggs soon. Especially since they aren't even fertile. It must be so frustrating to you and Bijou.

Have a good weekend!

[Love Bird B]

Hi Diane,

I don't know if you'll notice this post, so I was thinking of starting a new one to answer your bird cage question and to add some other notes on how Perky has been training me.

[Jenny]

Amanda- I said I had read an article about egg-laying and hysterectomies in birds, and I finally got the magazine back from some people I had lent it to. So, I will try to post the main points as soon as possible. I can't right now, because I'm supposed to be in bed! :rolleyes:

[Jenny]

Ok, here it is. First of all: chronic egg-laying is most common in 'tiels, luvies, budgies, 'toos, and greys. If your bird lays infertile eggs, look up incubation period for the species, and leave eggs that number of days. Do not pull earlier, because the bird will be stimulated by the empty nest to lay more possibly. The two variables are diet and environment. If on seeds mainly, convert to pellets. If need be add calcium supplements to the water, or give orally. Also, feed foods high in calcium. Light is a huge stimulus. As day length lengthens, the "pineal body" in the brain is stimulated and a bunch of chemicals and hormones are unleashed. Shorten the day length, if best no more than 12 hours of day light and at least 12 hours of darkness. Covering hte cage isn't enough. About hormone therapy, it sometimes works but usually not. Now about hysterectomys, it is fairly easy to do on larger species but dangerous on tiels and smaller, though the author has done them on budgies, a luvy, nad a finch. However, this leaves the bird open to another problem which usually occurs five or six years later: egg yolk peritonitis. Since the ovary is still present it's hooked up to teh blood supply so follicles form and eggs and mature ova fall into the abdomen. So there's yolk just sitting in the bird's abdomen! Since the body isn't used to this, fluids and white blood cells release and try to "stomp it out". So now you have a very sick bird! Thankfully, there's a safer alternative to a hysterectomy, called a Laser Ovarian Vaporization (LOV). (A note of my own though, have fun trying to find a vet who does this because the equipment is around $40,000!) Anyway, the author thinks the LOV is the best thing ever invented since the wheel and has been performing it on many birds with great results. The vet jut sets the lazer on low voltage, and vaporizes the ovarian tissue leaving hte surrounding tissue fine. The author goes on to say "I no longer recommend or condone hysterectomy as an answer to egg laying. LOV is the only way." Now about egg-binding. The main contributors to the egg getting stuck is obesity, low calcium blood levels, selenium or vitamin E deficiency, or low environmental temp. The author says he gives the bird fluids to help hte kidneys in cases where birds are egg-bound, becasue otherwise the egg is pushign on the kidney which, of course, is bad for the bird! Then he puts the bird in an incubator and gives it a calcium injection. If that doesn't work, the bird gets hormone injections. In really bad cases they juts collapse the shell and suck out the contents of the egg with a syringe. Or, they will use the LOV! Anyway, that's about it...and I think it would have almost been shorter if I had just written the article word for word! lol :) Well, hope this is at least some useful to you all.

[crazeemama]

It seems that unless you can find someone to do the LOV precedure, you are really just trading 1 problem for another with the hysterectomy. I guess the alternative is to try to keep the bird in peak condition from a nutritional standpoint and try not to encourage nesting behaviors.
Has anyone tried 'dual cages' for this problem? a daytime vcage and a night time cage? Also you may have to get a more light blocking fabric for the cover as i think the article (or the book Parrots in health and illness) suggests that the source of the light daylight/artificial produces the same result in this instance.

[sandeandl]

Hi. I'm writing to tell you that my parakeet just had a hysterectomy. It was the hardest decision I ever had to make. Chronic egg laying should not be taken lightly. My bird was eggbound 3 separate times. She used to lay clutches of eggs like a normal bird. One day, she couldn't. I came home from work and found her uterus out with an egg in it. She couldn't pass the egg. I rushed her to the vet and they did a surgery. They got the egg out and the uterus back in. She was given antibiotics, painkillers and anti inflammatory medicine. She recovered, only to prolapse again 7 months later. Another surgery. She recovered and prolapsed again 7 months later. Another surgery. I did everything possible to make sure she would never prolapse again. I gave her calcium supplements, lupron injections (a birth control for birds), changed her cage and the location, changed her diet, etc. Nothing worked. The third time this happened, we opted to remove her uterus so this would never happen again. My bird came home from the hospital today and is recovering. She was cut open on her side and made it through surgery. It breaks my heart to see my bird suffering, but I couldn't put her to sleep, which was the only other option. I read your posts and I hope all is well with your bird. I have spent about 5,000 dollars so far to help my bird (4 operations, medicine, etc.) Do not let a vet tell you that chronic egg laying is no big deal. I don't know if my bird will recover, but at least I can say that I tried to save her life.