Your thoughts on using live feeder fish?

[larna]

Hey, I would like to hear what do you guys think of using live feed fish, those small fish that you buy in pet stores to feed predator fish like arowana and oscar.

I think it's very cruel. Every fish has the right to survive and not end up as food to feed larger fish. Imagine the torture and fear it has to go through :(

[MelissaPengu]

I have Cichlids (cousins of the Oscar), and though they aren't quite big enough for full grown guppies, they do enjoy baby guppies now and then.

Fact is, healthy feeder fish are likely to be way heathier for the fish eating them, rather than month old freeze dried worms, and other things you buy in the bottles.

If the fish is going to beat the feeder fish to death, that would be a little different. But from what I've seen, most fish that require live fish, even as treats, normally eat the fish in one large gulp, and it's over.

[Wiztherewoz]

Okay, I'll give it a go explaining my thoughts. (Mine and mine alone, no need for anyone to say I'm right or wrong, it's just my opinion. And I am not a fish person.)

I do understand that the fish that you're (people in general, not you OP) feeding the live fish to need to eat. And they're your priority because they're the ones you're keeping. But you can't say that it's natural. Because the feeder fish, if found out in the wild (or whatever you call the wild underwater places) would have a chance of escaping. They aren't 'feeder' fish in the wild, they live their own lives, then may or may not get eaten in the end. But when they're being plonked in a tank, they have no chance at all. Their purpose is to be food. To me, that's cruel.

But on the other hand, it's only the same as dogs and cats eating meat from animals bred and slaughtered for consumption. At least these feeder fish get a quick and relatively stress free death compared with all the poor english cows/american pigs/korean dogs/chinese cats/anything else with a pulse and a bit of flesh on them from anywhere else in the world whose only destiny is to end up on someone's dinner plate.

Hope that was clear... I may just be babbling now, I'm not sure. :33:

[kaitlin]

i agree with heather... we sell at the store i work at feeder goldfish, rosy reds, guppies, and ghost shrimp.. people feed them to their salt water fish, barakish water fish, and fresh water.. which is completely not natural...goldfish are cold water fish and do not usually live together with any of these larger fish, and obviously they dont ever live with salt water fish.. it just seems weird to me, especially the people coming in to buy a fish just because it eats smaller fish.. ppl are sick.

[Hunna]

I am of the opinion that everything needs to eat. Alive now, or used to be alive but is now freeze dried... I dont really see the difference.

[That_girl]

Ditto Hunna. If you don't like live feeding, then don't get an animal that requires it. Sure, feeding feeder fish is unnatural, but so is keeping a fish in a fish tank in the first place. This is an argument that just goes round and round and round.

[larna]

Well there may be some point of argument on how the feeder fish were fed to the larger fish but what I've seen are some newborn little goldfish that were being fed to the arowana that swallows in a gulp. Obviously the little fella will have to go through a dreadful death inside the belly of the large fish.

[alcoth]

Ditto Hunna. If you don't like live feeding, then don't get an animal that requires it. Sure, feeding feeder fish is unnatural, but so is keeping a fish in a fish tank in the first place. This is an argument that just goes round and round and round.

Spot on imo.

I own a dog. As much as I love her, she's a carnivore. All those pointy things in her mouth aren't good for mashing up veggies. Something has to die for her to live. This, I understand and commit to.

The original question though... That particular scenario is probably less humane than cattle slaughtered for hamburger. I don't know fish anatomy but when they're swallowed, I'm sure they're digested alive. Just like she said though, don't get an animal that requires it if you don't like it.

[Wiztherewoz]

The original question though... That particular scenario is probably less humane than cattle slaughtered for hamburger..

I'm not so sure about that... I don't want to go into any dramatic detail, but... what those animals have to go through is horrendous.

I don't know fish anatomy but when they're swallowed, I'm sure they're digested alive.

Really? That's so awful, I didn't know that. I assumed that they died immediately when they were swallowed. But now I think about it... *shudder* Poor little fishies.

[alcoth]

I'm not so sure about that... I don't want to go into any dramatic detail, but... what those animals have to go through is horrendous.

Oh? :/ I started thinking about it - I guess their lifestyles are miserable. Good point.

[Wiztherewoz]

Oh? :/ I started thinking about it - I guess their lifestyles are miserable. Good point.

Their lifestyles are miserable, sure, but their death-styles are horrific. Poor bubs.

I know death-style isn't a word, by the way. ;)

[alcoth]

I don't think "death-styles" is a w....

oh nm, you beat me to it :)

I googled the fish digestion question... Apparently most predatory fish actually have teeth. I'm not a fish person, so I found this interesting...

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fishfood/understanding.php

[kaitlin]

about two years ago i was completely anti-live feeding anything.. it disgusted me when people came in to the store i work at to buy feeder fish, mice, rats, crickets, etc.. but for the past ehh, year to year and a half, i've been working with the reptiles in the store, unfortunately im the one who feeds the snakes live baby mice, or rats, depending on size... though i don't like doing it by any means, i understand they have to eat too.. i'll never own anything that eats live animals, but i guess now i understand more that its just small scale of what really goes on in nature.. and thus the food chain prevals!

[Jerica]

Honestly in my opinion as others have said, if you aren't comfortable feeding live critters to other critters, dont get the ones that need it. It is natural for them to eat live foods, not freeze dried. As far as snakes eating live mice, well a dead (but warm) mouse will give the same nutrition, but some snakes simply won't eat ones that are already dead. It depends on the snake. The same as generally a predatory fish won't eat an already dead feeder fish. It may not be pleasant to feed live anything to our pets and may seem unnatural for the "feeders" to not be able to escape, but as someone already said, its unnatural to keep animals in tanks (or cages or whatnot) and think about it, there is less of a chase in a tank than in the wild, so their death comes sooner, ya they can't escape, but would you rather be chased all over the place then eaten or just chased a short time and eaten? There is probably less stress on them in the tank.

And as far as fish in the wild having lives before they get eaten as opposed to feeder fish being bred to be eaten in captivity, well honestly as the food chain goes, smaller fish are eaten by bigger fish in the wild, so really they are meant to be eaten, thats why they are born, and honestly fish don't even know they were bred to be eaten, they don't know anything different than what they are raised in (which is a little sad in itself but so is keeping a fish in a tank, but we all still do it) No fish that is in captivity ever has the life of a wild fish. Feeder fish honestly have no way of knowing they were bred to be eaten and they don't know there is other life than in a tank.

As for the fish being digested live, I honestly think that they die before they get to the belly, as most predatory fish do have teeth and it doesn't take much to kill a fish, they may not chew but one bite could probably easily kill the feeder. At least that is what I think rather than imagine them being digested alive, even if they are alive when they get there they probably suffocate from being inside the other fish before they really feel the digestive juices. Fish stomachs are about the size of their eye when empty (or so I've read), so I imagine it doesn't take long to suffocate, which is better than being digested alive. I've cleaned a fish (that I caught for food) and when I opened him up there was a whole dead fish in his belly, it was as tight around that fish as wrapping a air tight bag around your body, a very tight fit so not much breathing room at all. After all if they stayed alive for very long at all they would end up hurting the fish that ate them, so they obviously can't be alive for very long anyway. It just wouldn't work for a live fish to be struggling in there dying slowly, it'd probably end up killing the one that ate it.

The fish I caught was a catfish, the one in the stomach was a bluegill, if you know fish, you know bluegill have very sharp dorsal fins, if that fish wasn't dead when it hit the stomach or very soon after, that fin would rip through the stomach, they aren't very thick. So in my opinion fish don't have a slow painful death when eaten. This is all just based on my observations. I hope this helps you all feel better. :)

[MelissaPengu]

Most meat eatting fish have other opinions rather than live feeding. They do have other options - freeze dried, frozen, ect. My boyfriend had a Green Terror cichlid that would eat ham, crickets, pretty much anything you put in it's tank...even cherrios.

Now, to the point that these fish wouldn't normally have goldfish/guppies in their natural habitat to munch on, what would they eat? Another kind of fish, or insect. Most live feeding fish are just as happy to eat a cricket than they are another fish, only difference is, the cricket is likely to drown if the fish doesn't see it right away.

And most fish that eat other fish, DO have teeth. Next time you're at the petstore, stick your finger in a tank with a large Oscar Cichlid. It will bite. And you WILL feel its teeth. They may not hurt as bad as it sounds, but when you're a little guppy/goldfish, I'm sure it's a world of a difference.

I do however, have cichlid. But I feed them froozen bloodworms, and the occasional frozen brine shrimp, as that's what my turtle eats.

I breed guppies, and that may be why my opinion is so strong, but I hate feeding my cichlids guppies. (They aren't big enough for goldfish, yet.)

[Hunna]

My point was... the bloodworms, and brine shrimp, the crickets, heck even the ham "used" to be alive too. Your still feeding living creatures, just ones that were killed in a different manor, but they are still just as dead.

[Llamalady]

I can't handle having animals that I HAVE to feed other animals to. I understand that certain animals, that is part of their function in the circle of life, like I won't interfere if my cats are eating bugs (yuck) but I'm not going to go out of my way to harm any animal unless it was going to harm me or the cats or have the potential to truly harm me or the cats (example GIGANTIC BIG BLACK WASP/HORNET THINGY, or mosquitoes, etc.,.). Luckily, up here in the north woods, there's not a lot I have to protect my babies from, but there's a few.

I understand people liking these animals, but I just don't have it in me to do that.

[MelissaPengu]

I find this really interesting.

Because most of the people in this thread (maybe with the exception of one, MAYBE two) eat meat themselves. On a daily basis.

It is a part of life. Things eat other things. And if you think about it, you are contradicting yourself if you eat meat, and you don't agree with feeding meat eating fish meat. In all reality, a human will eat MUCH more meat than a little fish, maybe the size of your hand (some get bigger), but they only eat every few days, a few fish, much smaller than themselves most likely, and a human will eat a cow every few days. A COW. or a pig. or a FEW fish. Much larger than a goldfish.

[Llamalady]

Yeah well there's a big difference between me first hand seeing something die or killing something, and being detached from it. I know that probably doesn't make any sense either, but it does in my little fragile brain. :)

And yes, it's very interesting. :)

I guess to make a little bit more sense I don't think it's MY personal place to kill anything except out of self defense. It's somebody else's job to do the killing or the feeding of live animals to other live animals ;)

[kaitlin]

so, what about live feeder mice/ rats? any different?

[Hunna]

When I was younger, I lived with a guy who had 2 very large snakes. While it was a little sad, I could handle him feeding them the mice/rats. When they became big enuff that he had to feed them rabbits, I moved out. I had rabbits as pets growing up, and just couldnt handle that one. I dont value the rats life any less, I just never have had an emotional connection with one as a pet, so it was easier for me to stay distant? That make any sense?

[MelissaPengu]

I agree.
I had rats and mice both growing up, and have a mouse now.
I've had a snake too, but my parents always made sure I was out of the house or at least at the other end of the house before feeding her.
I couldn't feed a snake a rabbit. Not only do I hate HUGE snakes, I just don't think I could bare to watch. I had a hard time watching the mice/baby rats.

[kaitlin]

i think its terrible to watch.. especially the ones big enough to eat rabbits/kittens/guinea pigs... (yes, there are people out there who find kittens and feed them to their snakes... a free meal) infact we even had a customer come in once to the pet store to report their friend was breeding puppys and kittens to feed to their snake.. terrible. i just dont understand the... thrill i guess.. from owning such large animals.. thankfully, most are illegal here. though tht doesnt stop people from having them :(

[MelissaPengu]

I don't think making them illegal would change anything where I live.

I really don't think feeding a KITTEN to a snake should be legal, though. Maybe a rabbit, maybe even a guinea pig, because those are likely to be eaten in the snakes natural habitat, but you know that there isn't a Kitten running along in the middle of the dessert, or up in a forest canopy. Maybe some other wild cat, but most of them are either too big, or too smart for the snake to catch it.

[larna]

Oh no, not the rabbits :(
That's why I can only live with pets that don't require live feeding.

When I was younger, I lived with a guy who had 2 very large snakes. While it was a little sad, I could handle him feeding them the mice/rats. When they became big enuff that he had to feed them rabbits, I moved out. I had rabbits as pets growing up, and just couldnt handle that one. I dont value the rats life any less, I just never have had an emotional connection with one as a pet, so it was easier for me to stay distant? That make any sense?

[Wiztherewoz]

Because most of the people in this thread (maybe with the exception of one, MAYBE two) eat meat themselves. On a daily basis.

Ummm.... Not being mean or anything, don't worry, I'm just curious how you could possibly know who eats meat in this thread and who doesn't? :confused:


...
It doesn't matter to me if it's a pinkie, a mouse, a rat, a rabbit, a kitten, a dog or a cow, whatever; I personally couldn't allow one to be thrown into a pit with another animal that will cause it harm and watch it suffer and die. Heck, I feel sorry for flies caught in spider webs. :rolleyes:

(I do realise that predators need to eat too, I do realise that it's the circle of life, I do realise that dog meat is made from animals that were killed horribly, I do realise that when you choose to adopt a predator you have to take on the responsibility of feeding it. I'm just saying that personally, I couldn't do it.) Not that anyone asked :p

[Aqualoon]

I only see one version of the debate going on here which is the ethical aspect of feeding a live animal to another live animal.

The more important (IMO) aspect of this debate is the nutritional value that a feeder has vs pellet or flake and the fact that feeders are great carriers for disease. If you can breed your own feeders (guppies, convicts, etc) then using them as to supplement a steady diet of pellet/flake is good, I would advise against buying store bought feeders, or if you do put them in a quarantine tank for a week or two before feeding them to your fish.

[kaitlin]

I only see one version of the debate going on here which is the ethical aspect of feeding a live animal to another live animal.

The more important (IMO) aspect of this debate is the nutritional value that a feeder has vs pellet or flake and the fact that feeders are great carriers for disease. If you can breed your own feeders (guppies, convicts, etc) then using them as to supplement a steady diet of pellet/flake is good, I would advise against buying store bought feeders, or if you do put them in a quarantine tank for a week or two before feeding them to your fish.

i agree completely. the feeders we have are dying left and right. we have to order like twice the amount we actually sell bc they all die within the week between new stock.