Old dog "hearing things" and barking A LOT!

[dogaholic]

Hi. I have an old girl who I believe is deaf, or at least heading in that direction. She also has issues with one eye. Overall, she is very happy and healthy but she is very much a "granny dog" with "granny issues."

The problem I am having and need help with is this:

She thinks she hears things, like cars in the driveway or people on the front porch when there is no one there. Sometimes it's the bass of my surround sound when we are watching a DVD. Sometimes it's the train that is over 2 miles from my house! In any case, she BARKS like crazy at the oddest times, to the point of being a real pain. I know she is old...and she is very sweet...and we laugh about this sometime...but...I've actually had to rewind DVDs because she wakes from a deep sleep and runs to the door. Well, that just gets the rest of the bunch doing the same thing so it's a bark fest.

Sometimes this happens 10 times in a movie :confused:

Do any of you have a suggestion that would be "kind and gentle" to my old girl so she learns to stop barking on command or before the whole pack runs to the door barking? I don't want to use a bark collar or anything like that.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions!

[special]

How about turning down the sound, or disconnecting the surround sound all together?

If she's losing her sense of hearing she may have a lot of trouble identifying what she's hearing. Not knowing what's going on would make her feel defensive.

Hearing is very important to a dog, not being able to identify sounds may make her feel vulnerable.

There is also the possibility of senility.

the thing is, as our pets age, they need special considerations, and possibly sacrifices from us, to make their senior years as comfortable as possible. A small price to pay for all the years of unconditional love, right?

[FredsMom]

But what would be the point of this person watching a movie?

I mean maybe try taking off the surround sound but Im wondering if the dog is being that sensitive to sound, surround sound or not will set them off. Beside, that wouldn't solve the problem long term, that just masks it for a bit. There is still the issue of other noises triggering the behaviour.

With dogs, you can't just avoid the situation. You have to train them out of the issue because anything can trigger it after a while. Im sure having the dogs go off after someone knocks on the door is just as annoying as during a movie. My parents have a dog like that. God love her but she just barks at every little thing and it doesn't matter if im laying around, doing nothing or watching TV, its horrible to listen to.



Perhaps put a movie on and keep treats with you. When she starts to go nuts get her attention with the treat or toy or what not and everytime that sound is played treat her so she starts to understand its a good sound and shes rewarded when she is calm.

Can she hear anything? Can you use a clicker? Perhaps do the clicker training thing where you start with introducing the clicker (click and treat her about thirty times in a row). Then get her to lie down and be "calm." Maybe Calm can be your cue word with this. Get her to "calm" without distractions for a bit. Then start bringing in the distractions, click and calm her. Then try it with a movie.


I hope something helps!

[RoxanRustand]

Our old-timer, a 10-11 years old Border collie, was getting really confused...he'd be downstairs, and just bark and bark mournfully....though nothing was there. He also seemed to have forgotton how to get out of the room down there, he'd just shake and bark, as if an invisible barrier held him back.

Hariold has been getting his "smart pills" for six months now, and he completely quit those behaviors. :) It's called Cholodin, and its a chewable tablet with choline (our vet suggested it--its supposed to help brain function), amino acids, vitamins, minerals.

I don't believe in a lot of remedies that are out there...so often its just hype. And, I can't say for sure that there has been a direct cause and effect, because other variables could have come into play. But I *do* know that Harold isn't doing all the mournful barking any more, and he seems a lot less confused!

Roxanne

[special]

But what would be the point of this person watching a movie?



As I said, when our pets age, sometimes they require small (or large) sacrifices from us. A movie can be viewed without a lot of loud sound. Is a lot of noise more important than this elderly dog?

Since this is a new behavior, in my opinion, the first issue is to find out WHY she is doing this.

If she's losing her hearing, she could be confused as to what these sounds are. Which could make her feel defensive or vulnerable.

She could be becoming senile, developing dementia. A vet visit could help determine that and know how to cope with it.

I think this dog needs compassion and understanding and a check up, prior to any retraining.

[MandyPug]

To me, the surround sound doesn't seem like the issue since she's barking at things other than just the movies. No need to unplug your expensive sound system.

Basically don't reassure her (that means no saying "it's okay" or "you're fine, it's just a train"). Redirect her attention. Get her favourite toy or a really delicious treat and whenever she starts barking you get her attention and make her do a sit or down or other command to earn that treat. It should be something super special. Also at random times during the day when she's quiet, make her do a command and give her a treat. Slowly work into using a dvd as a distraction. If she's calm, give her a treat. Start associating the word "Calm" or "Settle" with being quiet and well behaved.

This isn't something needed to be seen by a vet; dogs will bark, it's what they do and older dogs will sometimes bark more cause they get spooked easier. Age is not a medical condition.

[special]

True, age is not a medical condition. But with age, comes medical conditions. And Deafness and senility are medical conditions.

When one's senior pet suddenly begins exhibiting unusual behaviors, it could be a sign of illness. I prefer to be proactive with my pets' health, and so advise others to be the same.

[MandyPug]

Dogs go deaf with old age, there is no cure for that and no treatment for it either. All dogs bark too, you have only cats though so maybe you didn't know that. Also, senility isn't something worth medicating; if the dog is so far gone to be dangerous without drugs then so be it i don't think the dog is enjoying it's life.

Once again, barking isn't an unusual behaviour for older dogs. I suggested the methods that have worked with not only my old nearly deaf and blind poodle, but with my clients' dogs with hearing loss too.

Oh and i love how you're suggesting that I'm not proactive with my pets' health cause i use natural remedies and i don't take my dogs to the vet for every cough and sneeze or eye gunk. Some things don't need a vet, and people in this economy would like to know when it's imperative or not to go to the vet. Not every animal has to be on a medication, there are other ways of dealing with things you know.

[special]

Read the post. The barking is new behavior. The elderly dog is "acting like she's hearing things". When any animal begins to show unusual behaviors, it's for a reason. The first thing to do, is find out what the reason is, not worry about the inconvenience of the human.

[MandyPug]

I re-read the post, and i don't think this is a neurological thing like you think it is special. The dog also has vision loss. My youngest has only a tiny bit of vision in her left eye due to a cat scratch injury (hence why i will never welcome a cat into my home or yard unless it's claws are gone), if she's not in a deep sleep and someone walks by her she's up and barking. If it's dark and she sees a strange shadow out of the corner of her eye, she'll start barking. It gives the illusion that she's hearing things and barking at them, but really she was just startled by a shadow or vibration along the floor or something. Just like how if my mother (who has full vision) isn't sleeping soundly and you approach her in the dark she'll freak out and wake up screaming.

Basically what is needing to be done is the "Calm" or "Settle" command. I've trained many dogs special, i've had many dogs in my life too; and I'm certainly not the idiot you try to make me out to be. I think you're better off sticking to the threads you know in the cat section. Dog behavioural problems require training not drugs.

[special]

Neurological was only one suggestion.

A dog losing her hearing and sight feels vulnerable and defensive. She probably has more trouble moving than she used to, also. All of this can cause a dog to act in unusual ways, and should be addressed.

Sure, a training method may be the answer. And there are people here who have the experience and knowledge to assist with that. but first, find out WHY she's acting the way she is. She needs compassion and understanding.

Elderly animals require special consideration. If noises upset her, ways (where possible) should be found to reduce noise.

None of us are vets or know the animal in question, but according to the OP, this is new behavior.

New behavior in any animal should be investigated. New, unusual, behavior is an indication that something is not right in the pet's world. It is in the dog's best interest to find out WHY she is acting this way.

Whether it be cat, dog or human, the elderly deserve compassion and understanding, and medical care, in their last years.

[_Lisa_]

Basically don't reassure her (that means no saying "it's okay" or "you're fine, it's just a train"). Redirect her attention. Get her favourite toy or a really delicious treat and whenever she starts barking you get her attention and make her do a sit or down or other command to earn that treat. It should be something super special. Also at random times during the day when she's quiet, make her do a command and give her a treat. Slowly work into using a dvd as a distraction. If she's calm, give her a treat. Start associating the word "Calm" or "Settle" with being quiet and well behaved.


I think this is definitely the way to go. Its not like you can reduce the noise of the train two miles away from your house! And it would be impossible to reduce the noise of a "phantom" visitor to your front porch that isn't really there! :) Mandy makes an excellent suggestion on how to regain & keep control of the situation. Vigilance & consistency on your part is necessary though, so keep on it!

And as for taking her to the vet-she should be getting regular check ups-my dogs are fairly young & they go twice a year each. Now that your dog is officially in old age, you might take her to see if anything else might be failing that you can't see!

Good luck!

[dogaholic]

Thank you for all the suggestions. I had no idea there would be such a varied and number of responses.

Polly is old, not ill. She is very healthy just is either losing her hearing or it may be gone completely. It's hard to tell because there are other dogs in the house too...so is she running to the kitchen because she hears the stainless steel bowls getting ready for feeding time, or because the other dogs are heading there??? Either way, she has hearing loss. She is also "selective" in her hearing (maybe). She seems to hear the bowls but ignores us when we call her. Still a smart dog :)

I really don't do the vet thing unless I know there's a medical problem. I don't do the doctor thing either with my family, unless there's strep throat or something that specifically needs to be handled by a doctor. Polly has no real medical issues. Her coat and skin is good, no shedding except a couple times a year (like right now), her eyes are not goopy, her ears are clean with no smell, her weight is excellent...and she loves to eat so her appetite is good.

Polly is on a good supplement...actually two of them. One is a powder called dinovite canine and one is a liquid called supromega. She is on an excellent diet as we switch between commercial foods and raw. Her energy level is pretty good for a 13 year old dog, although she does enjoy her bed more and her romps outside are shorter these days.

I think it is probably the vibrations that make her bark...so turning the bass down on the stereo might work...but I live in a house of men/boys who like those action movies with lots of bass. I think that is also why she barks at the train.

She is actually clicker trained but unfortunately, I don't think she hears the clicker well any longer. But, the suggestions help to remind me that giving her something to keep her "busy" during a movie or in the evening when she seems to bark more would give her a distraction. We use the bleached shank bones stuffed with natural peanut butter as treats so this might do it.

I've never used a kong because Polly has managed to shred anything except shank bones. Obviously, her teeth are still in good shape too.

I am going to get a bone ready for the weekend...my netflix have arrived and there's a particular action flick that my boys will be watching on Friday night...I will let you all know how that works.

My other option I may consider is to crate her in a bedroom upstairs. She loves her crate and doesn't feel "punished" when she's put in it. We are just used to the dogs hanging out with us during movie nights. But, life is changing for our old girl so this may be a time for changes.

Thank you again to all of you for all the information. This was my first question on a forum and what a nice surprise to get all the excellent information.

[katiem]

Good luck, and thank you for caring about your old gal! Let us know how movie night goes.:)

[FredsMom]

No problem dogaholic (BTW, I love the dogs name, Polly, that was my moms best friends name who introduced me to yoga, so now whenever I see the name Polly I think of calm and serene and happy things).

Ive had older dogs. Well into her late teens. She started having hearing loss and barking mroe as she got older. Its just something dogs do.

And Special, you're sort of generalizing the "elderly." My grandmother is 80 years old and not only in better shape than most people in their 50s (she plays tennis and long walks DAILY, my 104 year old grandmother walked everyday till her last days as well) and would be offended if we treated her as a geriatric. She asks for help when she needs it. Obviously this is a dog and can't ASK for help, but the OP said she wasn't ill and many of us in here have dealt with older dogs, which is why we suggested trying to distract the dog before spending what iwll be unnecessary money at a vet. If the dog was going senile chances are she'd also lose control of her bowels and be showing OTHER signs, such as snapping at nothing, biting herself, etc. There are tons of signs. But barking because she has trouble hearing and seeing isn't necessarily a sign of incontinence and senility.

Please understand, many of us on here prefer to understand the problem and treat it, but we prefer doing it without rushing to the vet immediately and dosing the dog up with a ton of medications. And these same people will be the FIRST to say "get the dog to a vet" if we are given information that requires it. In fact there have even been disagreements with some of us who say get to the vet, stop being cheap and other members have come down on us for not trying to diagnose on here. While not ALL vets do this, many make money off of prescribing drugs and whether its needed or not the dog gets doped up. Oh, dog is barking? Here, give her this and she'll calm down. Dog has seperation anxiety? OH, lets start her on paxil. The thing is, the people no here who are suggesting redirection are dog owners and most of us have worked with geriatric dogs, so we have actual experience with this. Raising a dog is VERY different from raising a cat. Redirecting the behaviour is cardinal rule one of DOG training.

[special]

Not once did I suggest medicating Polly.

There seems to be some misunderstandings over my intent in participating in this thread. My interest and sole concern was for Polly.

None of my posts were directed to any individual. Nor did I make any disparaging personal remarks. My advice had nothing to do with anyone on this board. How I would handle it, is how I advised.

My concern was, is, for Polly. If I have a pet, regardless of species, who shows a behavior change, my first action would be to get her a check up, and so I advised.

My second action, regardless of species, would be to arrange my household to accommodate her special needs. So I advised.


I do not consider money spent at the vet wasted. And I know how quickly an animal's health can change.

I love and trust my vet, we work together as a team in the care and well being of my pets. I would be perfectly happy to be told all is well, and would not consider the office fee wasted, I place no price on Peace of Mind.

Again, my words were not personal. As I would do, so I advised.

Perhaps now, I will be understood by those who chose to address me personally.

[FredsMom]

OK, I will say I am taking some offense to the fact that you are implying that I wouldn't do what is best for my dogs. I put my life on hold many times for them, spending money I don't always have to ensure they get the best I can give and keep them in good health.

Now that being said:

We appreciate your good intentions. Unfortunately the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

People come on here who have limited knowledge and there are many of us with YEARS of experience. I have ~23 years experience with dogs (but we'll say 13 because I was young for part of it), with DOGS, not with cats. I don't go into the cat forum and give advice when I don't actually have experience with it.

You are persistent in threads regarding medication. We understand, you medicate your cats and for the most part it is necessary.

And I may get flack for this but I would hope you would REFRAIN from doing that when you don’t have any experience with the specific breed. Special, we know you want to help, but sometimes, the advice you give isn't beneficial or conducive to the problem because it’s for something you don’t have experience in. We're not saying you aren't a loving pet owner, but I AM saying, you don’t understand dogs. At all.

A dog who is hard of hearing barking randomly is the same as an old man saying "Huh? Speak up sonny" when no one said anything.

You keep saying what YOU would do. But you don’t have a dog. You don’t seem to understand dogs and cats needs vary. And you seem to want to medicate for minor ailments. It’s just not always necessary and it can be BAD for the dog to medicate when unnecessary (and yes, vets WILL give you medications when it’s unnecessary sometimes).

I am going to have to ask you to be careful with your advice. Please, stop advising based on what you would do for a cat. They have different needs and there are different ways to treat.

And if we are going on "as we would do" I find pumping dogs (or many animals for that) full of medication bad. I think when absolutely necessary if the dog will have a fully healthy happy life with some aid, fine. Like with seizures, or my parents have a dog that had to go on medications for an illness for a time, but you can't just medicate everything. You DONT medicate for anxiety or stress, and you DONT medicate for hearing problems and barking. If the dog was senile, again, as A DOG OWNER I’ve experiences, there would be more signs that just barking.

[FredsMom]

And not to mention, some of us don't NEED to rush to the vet every time there is an issue. We won't hesitate to if we think its necessary, and thats fantastic that YOU can afford to rush to it. But you know what? When the question falls down to paying my electricity bill vs rushing to the vet for every bark and snort? I'll pay the electric bill and go into debt payin the vets bill WHEN NECESSARY. But tihs? DOES NOT REQUIRE IT.

Again, please do not ever insinuate I don't do everything I can for my dogs. I've given up a good part of my social life for them, I'm remhoming myself to give THEM a better space, no matter how much I love my neighborhood, I spent thousands of dollars making sure I could bring Fred with me when I moved and if I couldn't? I wouldn't have moved.

Just because I'm not overly paranoid and don't rush to the vet for every question or concern (you can also pick up the phone, they'll tell you whether or not to use the gas) does NOT mean I am not an amazing pet owner. I just have more experience in this arena than you. Regardless of my age, I've owned dogs my entire life. In this sense? Myself and Mandy and the other who say "refocus" justr have more experience here. You need to start understanding that when we say "NO, don't suggest that." There is a reason. We're not trying to be snarky. We just know better.

[dlaura]

First I just want to assure the OP that it is Petlovers passion showing here and nothing they did wrong by asking the question. Here on PL we can become quite passionate at times over some things.

Second I have taken some time thinking this over, as I was asked to jump into this thread and do a bit of moderating. It struck me on my way home that it is comparible to a child who has a fever - some parents take a child to the dr at the first feeling of warmth, others will go when the temp gets to 101 and others will wait until 106 or 7 before taking a child to the dr or hospital. Does this mean anyone of the scenarios is wrong or makes them a bad parent - not necessarily as everyone has their own comfort level of caring for a loved one. Now I myself would have gone somewhere in the middle at 101 degrees where another parent may have waited until 103, it is a personal decision based on how well you know your child and as I said your own comfort level.

I see the same thing happening when a pet owner is faced with the question of going to the vet or not. There is no right or wrong time, it is up to you and what symptoms you are seeing in the pet. I do agree that elderly animals need more vet attention then younger ones as with age comes medical issues. More so then with younger pets.

That being said, it is also a PL policy that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so therefore again there is no right or wrong answer in this thread.

Hope this helps.

[dlaura]

I'd also like to say that I just reviewed the thread and don't think anyone singled any other member out as being a bad pet caretaker.

Also didn't see medication advised by this member, I see a vet visit encouraged and again that is a matter of personal choice when that is needed.

Why does everyone assume that this member has only had cats? ..... and never had a dog? Have to admit this kind of confuses me.

I don't see anything wrong with making adjustments in our lives to accomadate an elderly pet. Such as turning down the television volume - last night hubby was watching a Lost in Space movie and I had fallen asleep on the couch. Let me tell you I jumped out of my sleep startled more then once when the movie hit a suspenseful crescendo and along with it the sound effects. Although I have to say it was hard to control it as when it was the story line the volume needed to be up and when you hit the suspense all of the sudden the sound would boom.

I think the OP had a great idea to allow the dog to rest in his/her crate when the family wanted to watch a louder movie. This is a special accomodation and I would just caution that the dog not lose it's connection with the family by being sent there early too many evenings of family movie times.

[JMar0408]

this is just extra....but i would think that any decent vet would probably want to know if the owner had at least tried to redirect the behavior anyway before coming up with any sort of solution. So yes, certainly go the training route and if then you see that the issue does not go away or becomes worse or there are other symptoms then you may want to see a vet.

let us know how it goes! and best of luck. i am certainly one that believes that making unneeded sacrifices for our pets isn't a necessity especially when there might be a way around it. And you're no less of a pet-parent because of it.

[Macawpower58]

In all my years of pet ownership I always had it drilled into me, before training for behavioral changes, make sure there is no health problems compounding, or causing them.

This dog does to me sound just like an older dog that is loosing sight and hearing. I've read nothing that makes me think ill health.

But due to what I know, medical checking is always a good move before beginning any behavior training plan. Something as slight as a sinus infection could be affecting this dog's hearing, and not only old age.

[dlaura]

I am going to have to ask you to be careful with your advice. Please, stop advising based on what you would do for a cat. They have different needs and there are different ways to treat.

I have to disagree with you here on two factors Michelle. This is an open/public board and you can't tell a member what advice to give - just like I can't tell any particular member to stop being so dog gone blatant. You are welcome to say you disagree - but you can't tell someone what to say.

When an animal starts acting differently there are those that would prefer to go directly to the vet and not risk waiting. Just like there are others who are more comfortable waiting - like you. It is just a matter of differing opinion and different levels of how one cares for their pet.


And if we are going on "as we would do" I find pumping dogs (or many animals for that) full of medication bad. I think when absolutely necessary if the dog will have a fully healthy happy life with some aid, fine. Like with seizures, or my parents have a dog that had to go on medications for an illness for a time, but you can't just medicate everything. You DONT medicate for anxiety or stress, and you DONT medicate for hearing problems and barking. If the dog was senile, again, as A DOG OWNER I’ve experiences, there would be more signs that just barking.

Again some do medicate for anxiety and stress. We had a member here quite a long time ago who refused to do so and would rather euthanize the dog then help it to calm down during thunder storms with a stress relieving med. I am serious and shutter when I think what a hubbub that one cause.

Again you assume just because a person has only had cats at the moment they have had no experiene with dogs - the problem is with assumptions.

We also assume the op doesn't want to spend $$$$ on seeing the vet - and that was never said.

I understand where some of you are coming from, as you want a person to have a choice and not feel guilty if they do not have the funds to take the animal to a vet that there are alternatives. It is appreciated you are offering alternatives, but you can't bash someone for offering their opinion of seeing a vet asap either.

[pipsie71]

We medicated Tilly for her separation anxiety after seeing the vet several times and calling in and paying lots of money for a dog behaviourist, who said that in 20 years it was the worst case he'd ever seen and therefore recommended medication to aid the training process. As a result, Tilly has made amazing progress and will be weaned off the medication gradually. So sometimes you do need to medicate for stress, I wouldn't put drugs into her willy nilly, Pip

[FredsMom]

I'm not saying to never medicate a dog. But Pip, even though you were pointing out that you do medicate, you also pointed out that you did everything you could on your own without medicating before coming to the conclusion that THAT was the best route. And thats my main point. If its not a health issue (which the OP did already state), then work with the dog first. Rule everything out before you medicate.

Fred was a high anxiety dog. My neighbors would tell me he would cry for me at my window whenever I went for class (thankfully I was friendly with them and it never bothered them). He wouldn't go near other people except for me in the begining and even when he was ok enough to sniff out a female, it would take him an hour or so to be comfortable enough to even relax when a male was in the home. I decided to work with him though, and it took a few years. It wasn't quick or easy.

He had high anxiety about vets too and I had a vet suggest doping him up. Not knowing better I did. Well, when I had to move vets the new vet was appalled that I was making my dog drowsy for simple things like taking his temperature or giving him a shot. The vet showed me a new technique and now Fred is a CHAMP at the vet and has NO problem being around other males (humans).

My over all point was not to rush to the vet, especially because, as a dog owner, for this case, it was not necessary. And i dont know, except for the one vet, most I have worked with would rather us know EVERYTHING there is to know before rushing in unless its an emergency. My ex is a tech and would often point out many things that people ran to the vet for that could be cured at home. Like freds food allergy. I would flip out when I saw hot spots and rush him to the vet. They look scary. But there was no need. All I had to do was change his food. But because I didn't know that and the vet I was using wanted money, I would go in and spend hundreds of dollars on tests and antibiotics and cortizone shots and this and that.

And I agree, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but, I guess in my opinion, my concern is with the OP and with other posters who don't have a ton of experience with dogs and I find, personally, that it is NOT beneficial to scare them by suggesting the VET right off the bat before finding out more information. It gives the impression that something is wrong with the dog.

I'd also like to point out in past posts there have been many times myself and others have said "GET THE DOG TO THE VET" because it WAS a health issue or because we had no knowledge of the issue and felt it better for the poster at the time to work with a professional. And almost all of those timeS? We were harangued for it. "people come on here for advice and you are scaring them by saying take them to the vet."

I find that very unfair.

[FredsMom]

I also think it is unfair, btw, that we were accused of not putting the dogs best interest at heart and instead worrying about the humans inconvenience. We stated our opinion that we didn't think unplugging a surround sound would solve the problem. I even stated in my OG post that it would just be a quick fix not a long term fix and the OP stated that it was not JUST the movies that were creating the problem, and nothing was done to address that.

I'd also liket o point out Mandy did not initially direct her comment toward anyone but the OP and offered her advice. From there it was implied that she wasn't proactive about her pets health because she (and i) feel that a trip to the vet is unnecessary. And I think its offensive that someone would say my or anyones opinion that a trip is unecessary means we look at it as money wasted. Thats completely bogus and a false assumption. I think rushing to the vet for something like old age is unnecessary, I don't think being unsure about something and going to the vet is a waste of money, but the OP has ALREADY (again) stated the dog is NOT ill, just old. BIG difference.

Are we really back to only shaking a finger at one side of the argument?

[tiffers]

I am reading this thread, for the third time, and I see, and understand, both sides of advice given. I, too, would recommend a visit...especially if the training is not helping. That being said, if the pet is otherwise healthy and shows no symptoms of anything else...I'd say training first, then vet visit. On the other hand, the longer you wait...if there is a problem...the more expensive it will be.

I am not a vet, but I am certified by the state of Texas to treat animals. I am not sitting on a pedestal, but I will say that this does not require a vet visit right now. The animal is showing no other signs or symptoms according to the pet owner. Therefore, in my opinion...it'd be wise to try training first. If that does not show progress, then yes...talk with the doctor.

I think that the issue at hand here, is that when a new member logs on...they notice all those little green squares, and how some of us have 4 to 6...and some only have one. They also probably notice the amount of posts we have, and our joining date...it would seem that Special and I have MANY green squares and MANY posts...which, to me, if I were a new member, would make us seem like respectable people on this board who's advice is probably good and honest. Therefore, I'd take their advice because it would seem they've been here a for a while and they know what they're talking about.

I feel like, some people are upset with Special's advice because of this...she has a lot of pull, and she usually presents herself in such a way that is kind and caring, so the OP goes to her because she is so compassionate about their pet. Other members see and understand the situation and realize a vet visit may not be needed at this time. They offer their advice contradicting Special's, saying such and such is not needed, and people start getting offended...it seems everyone on this board has to have the last word, myself included...I've been guilty of this many times. :D

The people advising training have a lot of experience here in that aspect, and were offended because it seemed Special was claiming they weren't 'proactive'. Like, when I said during the big online pharmacy debate that my animals were worth more to me and than a few bucks saved on potentially fake medicine. I see how offensive that is, and I see how offensive the 'proactive' bit is.

FYI, Special has had dogs before. One for sure. A beagle, I believe.

[pipsie71]

I'm not saying to never medicate a dog. But Pip, even though you were pointing out that you do medicate, you also pointed out that you did everything you could on your own without medicating before coming to the conclusion that THAT was the best route. And thats my main point. If its not a health issue (which the OP did already state), then work with the dog first. Rule everything out before you medicate.

Fair enough, it was just that when you stated that anxiety should not be treated with meds I just thought well we had to, and it could potentially have made me feel like a bad pet owner, but yeah, we are training her in conjunction with that, and only put her on them after seeking advice from a number of professionals as we felt her case was severe, and it was.

I'd also like to point out in past posts there have been many times myself and others have said "GET THE DOG TO THE VET" because it WAS a health issue or because we had no knowledge of the issue and felt it better for the poster at the time to work with a professional. And almost all of those timeS? We were harangued for it. "people come on here for advice and you are scaring them by saying take them to the vet."

I find that very unfair.

On this, I feel that if people come onto the forum seeking advice then that's exactly what they're going to get, good, honest advice from fellow pet lovers, whatever that may be. I personally have had some excellent advice from this forum.

[dlaura]

Point taken Tiffers, but no where did special even imply that others were not proactive, she just said she was proactive in taking her pet to the vet immediately. Immediately a few members took personal offense when their names weren't even mentioned. Why such a complex here?

The issue here is that some seem to think they can tell special what she can and cannot say. Or come right out and say she has less experience or no experience with dogs when they have no idea what so ever if that is true or not.

Be it a dog, cat, bird, reptile, skinkid - everyone has different opinions on when a vet/dr visit is necessary. Special likes to take hers in at the first sign of anything; while others are on the other side of the fence and want to try training first.

Everyone here is entitled to their opinion and to post that opinion - everyone is allowed to say they disagree -- but you be telling another member where they can and cannot post and what they can advise. It is up the new member to decide whose advice to follow or not to follow.

Oh and BTW special is a caring, gentle person who loves her cats very, very much. It is true she may take her kitties in before it is absolutely necessary, but that is her perogotive. Just like it is yours to wait and see first.

Yes Tiffers, special does present herself in such a way that a person may gravitate to her, before some others because of the way she presents her advice. I've said it before and I will say it again - if you want to be listened to being blantant and bashing isn't going to do the trick. Please - this is not directed at anyone in particular - I am just saying that you are received as you present yourself.

[dlaura]

I also think it is unfair, btw, that we were accused of not putting the dogs best interest at heart and instead worrying about the humans inconvenience. We stated our opinion that we didn't think unplugging a surround sound would solve the problem. I even stated in my OG post that it would just be a quick fix not a long term fix and the OP stated that it was not JUST the movies that were creating the problem, and nothing was done to address that.

I'd also liket o point out Mandy did not initially direct her comment toward anyone but the OP and offered her advice. From there it was implied that she wasn't proactive about her pets health because she (and i) feel that a trip to the vet is unnecessary.

I have reviewed this thread several times and again I find that no names were mentioned as someone not being proactive. Special simply said she liked to be proactive. No where did she say that someone else wasn't - just that she likes to be.


And I think its offensive that someone would say my or anyones opinion that a trip is unecessary means we look at it as money wasted. Thats completely bogus and a false assumption.

##### I'll have to review again to completely address this one. Michelle I think you did compare it to rather paying the light bill then take the dog to a vet if it wasn't necessary. Maybe that is where this came from.


I think rushing to the vet for something like old age is unnecessary, I don't think being unsure about something and going to the vet is a waste of money, but the OP has ALREADY (again) stated the dog is NOT ill, just old. BIG difference.

Are we really back to only shaking a finger at one side of the argument?

Forgive me Michelle, but I am chuckling here, as you wiggle/shake your finger right back very, very well. I like to think we are having a discussion and trying to see both sides. On this one we are on different sides of the fence. It happens many times that people don't always agree - that is understandable.

[tiffers]

Point taken Tiffers, but no where did special even imply that others were not proactive, she just said she was proactive in taking her pet to the vet immediately.

Right, and that's why I said it's just like the online pharmacy thread where I said to Jmar that my animals meant more to me than a few bucks saved using a potentially false medication. It was not that I meant to tell her that her animals meant nothing to her, but it was how it was taken. It's my personal opinion. I understand how the proactive was taken across, is all I'm saying. :cool2:

[dlaura]

Right, and that's why I said it's just like the online pharmacy thread where I said to Jmar that my animals meant more to me than a few bucks saved using a potentially false medication. It was not that I meant to tell her that her animals meant nothing to her, but it was how it was taken. It's my personal opinion. I understand how the proactive was taken across, is all I'm saying. :cool2:

Ok I got it now. :) Thanks.

[FredsMom]

I am unhappy with the fact that while you may not have seen her comment as offensive, myself and another poster did, and that is being disregarded. We may not see things we have said as offensive, and if they were taken that way, we would at least acknowledge it. And we seem to not be the only ones to have viewed it as such.

Its the same as when one of us tries to offer advice and it comes across wrong. Bottom line, I know I feel as if that statement came across wrong. We disagreed with a vet being needed (and AGAIN, we will always say go to the vet if we really feel it was needed, there is no questioning that, and if someone is, i would like toa gain point out the many times we've been reprimanded for immediately saying go to the vet. I find this to be somewhat hyprocritical. I do find its ok for certain members to say certain things and not ok for others to do the same, akbeit the context may be different) and the response to that was "I prefer being proactive."

Reading that says to me "well you must not prefer being proactive but i go to a vet first and foremost which means I am"

Beyond that, I guess my stating that I did think Special can be helpful in areas she has MORE experience in was overlooked. I stated I don't go into the cat section (yes my choice) because I don't have the experience and I expressed concern that advice, no matter how well intended, that doesn't have experience or knowledge to back it. I was informed that there was A dog but it was only around for a few years. To me? Being a dog owner that has worked past issues that many would just medicate, who has cared for 6 dogs for a combined 20 years, and having had to care for a dog that lived well into their teens from the start to end of her life, gives me the right to say I have more experience in a specific matter than someone who focuses their education around a different species. I've owned cats. I had two of them. But That by NO MEANS equals adequet knowledge on many issues that have to do with cats. I don't make an assumption that I know what I am talking about just because I happened to have cats for a time period. My expertise is with dogs. My understanding comes frmo a combination of years experience, dating a vet tech (in the past) which in turn led me to volunteer at his office, working with dogs of all ages. And even then I am no expert. I come on here for advice the same as I come to give it. If I don't know something I admit it and I will often suggest the OP turn to someone WITH more experience.

If i came across wrong and let my emotions and offense get the better of me, for that I 100% apologize for. I did not mean to insinuate that anyone should NOT give advice.

But what I do stand firm on is I think it is more beneficial when someone gives advice backed with more experience. And while Tiffers was completely correct in her assesment of the green squares and posts, I am also worried that because a poster may have more time logged iwth OTHER members that they'll let things go quicker. When I give advice its not necessarily based on what I would do if I had that specific animal. I give it based off of what I have learned about a specific breed. I've had working dogs my whole life. I've never owned a toy dog. So I can't give adequet information regaridng that breed. But I can acknowledge that. I have been educated when it comes to pet food and dietary needs, but I am by NO means an expert and will normally point people toward mandy for that.

I've owned cats and have MANY friends who own cats. I've sat for them. I've been there during emergencies. But I also know that if I gave advice based on my limited experience, it could wind up NOT being helpful.

The phrase, we know you have good intentions but the road to hell is paved iwth them was not meant as an attack or an insult and if was taken as such I apologize. But its true. We say all the time we are here for the pets well-being. In my opinion, bad advice is worse than no advice. I thnk there is a line sometimes between opinion and advice. When someone sees someone with more tick points than another and then another member with tick points backs them up and tears apart the other with less, it gives the impression that the person with less doesn't know what they are talking about. When that happens, advice that may not be beneficial will be taken over advice that is backed with real world experience, not internet. And while this time it was just a case of a dog who is hard of hearing, it could happen withs omtehing more serious and wind up being harmful. Its why I suggest a vet when I read of a health problem. Because I'm not a vet and can't tell you what medically needs to be done.

I also have yet to understand why when some of us suggest a vet first we get reprimanded, but when we find frustration in someone who persistantly suggests a vet first, it is applauded, and when we say it is just unnecessary we are accused of not being as proactive as another.

[dlaura]

I also have yet to understand why when some of us suggest a vet first we get reprimanded, but when we find frustration in someone who persistantly suggests a vet first, it is applauded, and when we say it is just unnecessary we are accused of not being as proactive as another.


I am not sure where that happened Michelle.

No, I am not applauding special for advising to see a vet first - what I am saying is that you cannot put words in her mouth and be telling her what she can and cannot say or where she can or cannot post.

Yes, I agree that special may take her cat to the vet when it may not yet be necessary, but ............by same token I can't fault her either as she cares for elderly cats which need more attention at times then the young ones. She would rather not take the risk there might be in waiting.

I am leaving now to go pick my dad up from dialysis and bring him home. It will take me over 3 hours to do this. I'll check back in later - just wanted to say that so no one thinks I am avoiding this thread.

Regards,
Diane

[pipsie71]

I think it's such a shame that people have somehow been offended in this post. I've not been using this forum long but so far it's always seemed really friendly! If someone comes on here for advice, surely it's up to them to read what everyone has said and then make their decision as to which advice, if any, they wish to take. I'm sure everyone has the interest of whichever animal is involved at heart, and we all offer what we feel is heartfelt good advice. As I said before, I've had lots of great advice on here, some I've followed, some not, but am still grateful for all the responses, Pip

[tiffers]

Beyond that, I guess my stating that I did think Special can be helpful in areas she has MORE experience in was overlooked.
It wasn't overlooked by me, I agree with you 100%.

But what I do stand firm on is I think it is more beneficial when someone gives advice backed with more experience.
Well, sure this goes for everything. I am not a Nutrition Nazi like some people here, and therefore I try to avoid posting in those threads, I do read them...to learn, but I know that nothing I will say will benefit anyone.

I try to also read most of the posts and from what I do know on the medical side of things, if I see something I can elaborate on or prove wrong, I will. Otherwise, I think it's just spam and pointless to post. That's just me, though.


And while Tiffers was completely correct in her assesment of the green squares and posts, I am also worried that because a poster may have more time logged iwth OTHER members that they'll let things go quicker.

I will also agree here, and say that is human nature. If you spend more time with someone, you understand them better and you're more apt to look over the little things. This happens with everyone, even in the real world.

We all agree that Special's expertise lies in cats. But, I think what some of us are missing is that Special advised her vet visit, as always...made a remark that upset some members, and here we are now. It is not that Special can't post or that she can't recommend her vet visit...it's that she said something that offended quite a few people...and now we're arguing over opinions because some weren't offended by it and other's were.

This is JUST like the online pharmacy thread...I stated my opinion, a very passionate one at that, and it was offensive to quite a few people. I did not mean to be offensive, I just stated how I felt. This is the same concept. We do not know if Special meant offense by it, but it was taken that way since we cannot read body language or hear voices...it was taken offensively.

I don't think this is about right or wrong, Diane. Or who can post when or where...but that, some members were offended by what was said...and that because you don't understand it seems you're not doing anything about it. I think some people feel like there is favoritism going on. If say, Mandy or Michelle had said that Special was a nimrod for always suggesting a vet visit that that medicine is pointless and there are natural approaches for everything, either of them would have been given some serious reprimands. Special has implied, to these girls, that they feel the vet visit is wasted money and that they put the vet off and aren't proactive...and here, nothing is being done to my knowledge.

:boggled:

[nanamouse]

I think it's such a shame that people have somehow been offended in this post. I've not been using this forum long but so far it's always seemed really friendly!

Uh yeah, usually we are friendly :o, but every so often personalities clash here just like in the real world. Both sides of this debate have made some good points, I really don't think that Diane was taking sides, not sure why everyone decided that an opposing point of view was a personal attack on them or their methods. It sure would be nice if folks could just agree to disagree and move on.

[FredsMom]

Nana, I think we would, I jsut think this has been a recurring problem. It's not so much the disagreement, although my frustration in this has concern for posters seeking advice with a lack of knowledge. I think it, as Tiff mostly point out, has become an issue where only one side is often addressed.

Everyones perception is their reality. Its disheartening to come somewhere and say, wow, this bugged me, or this hurt me, and be told to bad, you are wrong, and then be reprimanded for diong the same thing.

"Well I didn't mean it in an offensive way"
"Well it was taken that way so you better apologize"

When it comes to supporting members, things can be VERY one sided.

Who am I to say someone can or cannot voice an opinion. And again I didn't actually say she should never post. I requested that she focus on something she had more experience in. Her expertise is iwth cats. Sure she owned a dog, but that does not mean she has the same quality of knowledge that many other dog owners on here have. It's not an insult. It is just fact. Very much the same way I have NO quality of knowledge of how to care for a cat, albeit owning two during my college years. (A friend adopted them from me. I wasn't cut out to be a cat owner. I like them fine, but my passion was with dogs and I felt they'd have a better life with my friend, which they did, I had them for a little over two years).


If we want to talk "opinion" my OPINION is that if you want to give advice, have some background in what you are giving. Even then the advice may not be accurate. But at least there is a reason to be giving that advice. You wouldn't tell someone how to cook enchiladas if you only did it once many years ago, would you? I find much of the advice special gives would be better suited toward a cat than a dog. With a dog? Mental stimulation is high up there on a scale. Behaviour isn't always cause for a vet they way it might be with a cat.

And as far as wagging a finger, Diane? You addressed NO ONE but me in this thread and only broke down what I said paragraph by paragraph, singling me out. How would that resolve the issue at hand? By telling me I am in the wrong and because you don't agree with my POV the other is right? I don't see how that is an unbiased or even opinion. You disregarded the issue that myself and another were having and stood up for the other person. It took another third party to say, You need to try and see it from their point of view before you would consider it. I find that hurtful and I have to say made me question a few things

[Macawpower58]

This thread has gone way off course. Once again it's become a battle. Who has the right to post shouldn't even be being discussed IMO. I've reread it from start to finish trying to see what each members seen. First post by Special never even mentioned a vet. It mentioned a turning off of the sound, and making sacrifices in the day to day life. Turning off the sound to me is a little extreme, especially long term, but I understand what she's saying.

Fredsmom answered her very well, agreeing a trial might work, and offering some clicker training at the same time, expounding on ways to calm her.

So far I find no condescending or nasty tones.

In her following posts Special states she believes in being proactive, this in reply to one of Mandy's posts, that explained further methods to calm her and she stated it was not a vet issue, but an age issue. Mandy took her statement as directed at her. Was it? I really don't know, if it was, it was very subtle. I didn't take it that way, but Mandy took it personnel and came back at Special. I can see how she thought it was.

Everything went downhill from there. Personal feelings got out of hand. I'm not going to go into a blow by blow, but lots of toned comments were made by all members. At first I felt Special was being blasted, but on second read, I saw the very subtle start this thread took.

Fredsmom towards the end became very vocal, and I also thought she was attacking Special, but the truth is things started well before she became defensive.

I think we just need to stop. Nothing will get settled by more posting.

Whether the hearing loss is entirely age related, or has some medical reason behind it the OP will be the one to find out, and has read all she needs to, to make her decision.

No bad advice was given. But feelings were hurt. This is one that just needs dropped.

[dlaura]

Michelle, I chose your post to break down because it was you who said you had to advise special to post in the cat forums and I believe that she shouldn't always advise vet visits and she shouldn't say this or that. It appeared to me that you were dictating what she was allowed and not allowed to say.

Michelle if you were ridiculed for advising a vet visit in other threads some where you could have simply notified me and I would have posted the usual that everyone has a right to voice their opinion.

It seemed to me that you were trying to put down special's opinion.

She mentions she feels taking her pet immediately to the vet makes her feel proactive.

I agree. However, I also see someone who decides to observe their pet's symptoms and watch for a while before going to the vet as being proactive also.

It just seems that special is/was the underdog in this thread (and I have tried to see it from both sides - if I have failed what can I say - I am only human) and many times I find myself on the side of the underdog.

Becky is correct -it is time to bury the hatchett and get on with other more productive things.

Regards,
Diane

[dlaura]

Tiffers: I don't think this is about right or wrong, Diane. Or who can post when or where...but that, some members were offended by what was said...and that because you don't understand it seems you're not doing anything about it. I think some people feel like there is favoritism going on. If say, Mandy or Michelle had said that Special was a nimrod for always suggesting a vet visit that that medicine is pointless and there are natural approaches for everything, either of them would have been given some serious reprimands. Special has implied, to these girls, that they feel the vet visit is wasted money and that they put the vet off and aren't proactive...and here, nothing is being done to my knowledge.

:boggled:

I guess you all see it as nothing being done. This is because I see it differently then you do.

In the end all I can say is no one has the right to tell another member to stay out of any particular forum. (that I am aware of anyway) This is the way I see it and why I take offense to special being told she should do so. If someone decides not to give advice in the cat forum, bird forum, dog forum that is their perogotive but isn't something to be dictated to others.

I am sorry if you feel nothing is being done by me. At this point I am really not sure what else to do.

[special]

I dropped out of this thread because I had said, repeatedly, that my comments were not directed at anyone, nor were they. There didn't seem to be anything else for me to say at that point.

If someone chooses to take them personally, there isn't much I can do about that. No, I am not a dog expert, nor have I ever claimed to be one.

I have been around dogs my whole life, (and still am.) I grew up with dogs (and cats), rescued and cared for an elderly sick dog until she went to the Bridge. I spend many lovely hours with my three doggie nieces. I encounter dogs in my work frequently. I have personal relationships with these dogs.

I've learned a lot from Becky which has enriched my relationships with the dogs I work around, so much. So much. I can state with total confidence that her methods work, even on dogs who are not properly trained. Dogs who don't listen to their own people, but they listen to me, because I have consistently followed techniques I have learned from reading Becky's posts.

I don't give advice on canine training and behavior or nutrition.

But old is old. And in my opinion an elderly pet deserves special consideration, regardless of species, and so I said.

The claim was that even though I am well intentioned my advice could cause harm. I fail to understand quite how advising accommodating an old dog's comfort, or getting her a check up could cause harm.

We're not talking about a spry 18 month old dog who doesn't know how to behave, who wants to run the household and needs training and boundaries.

We're talking about an old lady who is losing her senses, the senses she relies on to live. My advice was to try to understand what the problem is, why she was behaving this way.

My position on taking animals to the vet is my way. I've seen too many people wait too long, and then it's too late. Animals suffer. I feel every one. My stand is, better safe than sorry. Everyone already knows how I feel about this, so why should any of it be taken personally? It makes no sense.

I don't always advise the vet. If I know the person and the pet, and I feel they could handle it at home, I give the advice I feel is appropriate to the situation.

But a random person comes in with a potential health problem with a geriatric pet, whether it be dog cat or snake, any pet, I am going to recommend the vet, and suggest they find ways to make the pet more comfortable. The poster is welcome to take it or leave it.

I don't know, (or didn't) anything about fredsmom's views on vet care, nor do I care what her views are. I was stating mine. Yes I did get a bit defensive and annoyed when attacked, so restated them, in stronger way.

I concede it could have been taken as a subtle put down. But my question is, why should it be taken that way?

I cannot fathom why it matters so much to fredsmom (or Mandypug) what my personal views are. Why should what I think make any difference to her? Why is she expending so much energy screaming at me and making rude remarks in a public thread? Why is it her business what I choose to do with my own pets' health care? It's ludicrous.

Our relatively new member Pip said it best. A person comes here for advice and gets it. It's up to that person to choose whether to take any of it or not.

[katiem]

Wow guys...a few useful pieces of information followed by 2 pages of arguments.:(