Dog Collar Info...FYI

[Squawksx3]

Just FYI ... I just got back from the vet and asked him if he has treated any dogs with injuries resulting from prong collars. He said he recently treated a dog that some people bought that had injuries to the neck from a prong collar.
The people noticed the dog had two punture wounds in the neck and they brought it in. The vet shaved the neck and discovered deep, infected punture wounds all around the neck. There was a spot where there were no wounds, consistant with the prong collar. He said it looked like someone gave the dog a very powerful "tug" when using a prong collar and the prongs penetrated the skin. He agreed the collars work when used in the proper way by those who are highly trained, in the training profession... but he does not like them and feels only uncontrolable, large, hard to train dogs should be trained with this method. So please be very careful when using these if you are just a regular pet owner. Choker chain collars can also injure dogs when not properly used.

Here are a few links to sites that have info on these collars...


http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

http://dogs.about.com/cs/generalcare/p/training_collar.htm

http://www.courteouscanine.com/toptenchoke-prong.shtml

[originalfatc]

Is it possible they tied the poor pup out with it on?

I've seen that one before and it's not pretty! Also the dog became very skittish and agressive because of the constant digging of the prongs every time he hit the end of the rope!

Some people just do NOT take time to learn about these special gadgets they buy!

['too crazy]

I always wondered why anyone would want to use a collar with prongs. It seems so inhumane to me. But then again I overly spoil my fids so someone like me would think that!:)

[krazy4birds]

I will be on my best behaviour here......I totally agree with each and everyone of you......couldn't have said it better myself.......

[Top Dog]

I am sorry krazy4birds, but your name says you are krazy and have four birds, so maybe you should stay out of this forum. I have a german shepherd who i would never think of putting a choke chain on because of the damage I would do to his neck. He is very high in drive an if i was to put a collar on him I would severly hert him when training him for a new command. Vets will blame everything on the prong collar.. I put this to the test? I had a client once where their dog had a couple wholes in his neck and he never had a prong on but I said I wanted to try something out and they agreed, I put the prong collar on and they took the dog to the vet and guess what they vet said the reason the dog had the problem was because of the prong!!! The dog never wore a prong collar before and the real reason the dog had a problem was because of aggressive play with other dogs, I knew the problem but the vet saw the prong and jumped to conclusions, anyhow when the owner said no acctually the prong was put on that same day and the dog had a problem with other dogs, guess what the vet said, "oh they have been fighting well thats ok", So it is ok if it is with another dog but not from a prong collar??????????????

[originalfatc]

O, good golly! That was pretty uncalled for to judge krazy by her nic!! She offered nothing but agreement to others' statements.

*Top Dog* means you know it all? If someone comes in here named *Ultimate Dog Trainer* you will defer to anything they say no matter what?

Presented calmly, your statement proves a theory of mine, when they don't know all the circumstances any vet I know will *jump to conclusions* trying to find the most likely cause of an injury. Their conclusions can change when they know more facts. They are only human.

Squawks is a knowledgable dog person who works in rescue.

I happen to be named for my Fatcat, but I am trained in grooming and dog and cat behavior modification.

The point here is to present facts, experiences and opinions.

Give us a break!

['too crazy]

Top Dog, I think I missed something here for your attack on Krazy. First off all she said was she agreed, and second, she is entitled to her opinion and can express it even if she only owned a goldfish. My name implies I'm crazy for my cockatoo but in all honesty, I'm a major cat lover and know more about them. You can't tell what animals people have by there name. I am another one who think you did her wrong. We don't attack others on this forum and I for one think you owe her an apology.:mad:

[Jenny]

Vets are not "psychic" and if they see a dog with punctures in its neck and a prong collar on, it's only natural to conclude that's why it happened! It's not the easiest thing to see an animal wiht an injury, know nothing about it's life, and try to come up wiht a conclusion to how it happened. Thanks for the information Jan. My friends have a golden who wears a prong collar, but thankfully they use it correctly.

[DiegoDog]

I'm staying out of this. I don't know why you'd post things like that. I know you do it out of concern for people using them on dogs. But most average dog owners would not buy a prong collar unless instructed so and shown by their trainer like I did. My dog big stubborn dog needed it. He's down graded now. He behaves well enough now that he uses a choker. But to put up something like that in here will garentee a debate. Everyone does have their opinion, no reason for character attacks (shame on you Top Dog). If a new person comes on here and sees everyone fighting they aren't knowing to know what to think. Dissagreeing is expected but up until recently I have never seen baited aruments liek this. Can't we just agree that we wont always agree but to try get along? *Starings singing "Why can't we be friends"* Ha ha ha. Seriously guys, everyone here has a love of animals and a desire to help others, lets keep with that good vibe!

[originalfatc]

Diego, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the average dog owner, I see many per day in the grooming business. They see a picture, an add or the plumber tells them a certain product is good, so they go get it without any knowledge of how to properly use it.

That is what this is all about, getting all the facts and professional advice before one jumps into getting an item only a pro should use or teach about, not if it works or not.

When I work with a customer on behavior modification, I try the suggested product on the dog first-then I take time to teach and observe. Even with teaching, some should NOT use certain things!

When I offer suggestions here, they are for the average owner, not guarenteed to work on every pet. A more difficult pet needs professional help- and not every single dog will call for a choke, shock collar, or prong. Those are individual cases!!!

[DiegoDog]

I totaly agree with that. I am just saying in my area where I live. I live in an apartment so my dog gets 3 half hour walks a day. Naturally I come across a lot of people. I have only seen 2 or 3 people with prong collars and all who were advised to by their trainers. But on here you also gotta watch, yes you should tell people to be wary of what they purchase without proper knowladge. But if you tell them that all these thing are evil and then they do see a trainer and they tell them to wear it, it may work coutner-productivly. Like you said, tell them to see a specialist. And if someone says something that should be left to a specialist, tell them to check with a trianer first before trying it. I mean I can vouch for Top Dog she doesn't use choke collars or prong collars on every dog she has come across. She has been doing this for I believe longer then I've been alive. It doesn't matter. I am tired of arguing. Other then some teasing arguments my life does not include arguments at all. So I think I am going to leave this place be until the debates die down. And if they don't they I will just wont come back. You may be thinking yay but for me it just isn't worth it.

[krazy4birds]

Sorry TopDog but your nic name implies you are what??? A dog???? Good grief...get over it. All I said was I agreed with Jan and ofc!!! And just for the record my nic name Krazy4birds ....translates as...Krazy for birds.....But that does not mean I have no other pets!

DiegoDog...I am so sorry ......and you are right! I formally apologized to TopDog in the other thread but I guess it was not accepted.

['too crazy]

WOW! did this ever get out of hand! You may be able to vouch for top dog but we can also vouch for squawks. She owns large dogs, fosters a large dog and works for a dog rescue. It's OK if Top Dog disagreed with her, but Top Dog attacked Krazy4Birds because of her name and that was uncalled for. That was where the fight began. If people are out to be vicious to other members, then maybe this is not the board for them.

[DiegoDog]

Well if you noticed I did not condone Top Dog's character attack. And I do agree with a lot that squwaks has to say, I never said I didn't. And the thing between Top Dog and Krazy started on a differnt fourm. I think what Squawks does is great. And Krazy I saw your apology and I think it was great. I hope people understand now. That I am in agreenece with many things Top Dog does as a trainer that I have witness personally, but that does NOT mean I am against everyone else in here. I'm going to go now. But thank you Krazy for not misinterperting what I have said. It gets exausting explaing yourself.

[Top Dog]

I AM REALLY SORRY ESPECIALLY TO KRAZY4 BIRDS,
I sincerially appoligize, I was totally out of call, I should not have attacked you the way I did but I was having a bad day, no excuse I know. Actually it took me a few days to write this apoligy because I was so embarrassed when I read it agian. I am not making excuses (well yes I am) but I really do love dogs and my clients and when they are not doing what I tell them to do it gets the better half of me not because I am a control freak but because I deal with some really tough dog and non complient owners and I know if they do not do what I tell them to do depending on dog and owner you know what will happen. And I dont want that to happen. So Please accept my appoligies and I shall never repeat that again!! Oh by the way you got me good( no I am not a dog but sometimes wish I was because then you would forgive me???????????????????????)

[krazy4birds]

Thank you Topdog. We can get on with a better start now. We all have those "why did my foot jump in my mouth" days....lol
Mine seem to be more frequient than others. Anyway....lifes to short to make enemies and argue all the time. Thanks again :)

[DaisyJRT]

I have never liked prong collars, and I personally can never see a justifiable reason for using them. I saw a bunch of kids on the street one day, walking their pit bull, I asked them why oh why did they have a prong collar on the dog.

Their response....

It looked cool....ummm yeah.:mad:

Granted I've never really dealt with a hard to train dog. I always use positive reenforcement. There are many training methods that could be used.

As for choke collars, I agree that if you don't know what you are doing that you can hurt the dog. Many people don't know that there is a wrong way of putting it on the dog. I learned that was I was 13, in the 4H dog club.

We rescued a doberman when I was a child. The poor dog had no hair on his neck....he had been tied on a cable run with a choke collar on!! :(

[DiegoDog]

To each dog their own

[RottnMutt]

I recently purchased a prong collar for my rottie. I researched the pros and cons and decided that it wouldn't hurt to try. Heidi has gotten big enough to pull me down when I walk her. Let me tell you something...... I am so glad I bought it. She is learning not to pull and I figure once she gets older, and understands how walking on the leash is supposed to go, I won't have to use it anymore. But for now, I LOVE it.

[originalfatc]

Personally, I hate harnesses, makes me a sled and gives the dog more power and comfort to pull lol.
I do use a harness in my elderly beagle and the chihuahua, the beagle has a collapsed trachea, so we try to avoid pressure on his throat, and the chi is too delicate to tie.
'Course, the backyard is fenced now, so no worries, when going somethere they will follow the alpha Golden Retriever anywhere.

I like the harnesses that tighten under the armpits when dog pulls. Took two tries and the Golden has *heeled* since then. Showing a customer with a 158 lb year old saint Bernard was great! She was used to pulling her 103 lb owner everywhere. The first time the straps tightened the Saint slammed on the breaks and has never pulled again!

[DaisyJRT]

I agree with the harness thing. It gives way less control then a collar. I mean now it pulls on the dogs chest....so the dog is like....sweeeeet, now I can chase that cat without choking myself!

As for the prong collar.....
take your dog to an obedience class....PLEASE!!! Prong collars are not a easy fix for a dog that doesn't walk well on the leash! If you train the dog to watch you, to listen to you, you wont need anything more than a buckle collar. Let me tell you, when we adopted my GSP Konrad, he was TERRIBLE on the leash....he'd pull for all he was worth....and sniffed everything along the way. He walks like a complete gentleman now. All it took were some treats, a chain choke collar and patience. I have been through 10 years of obedience classes. I have seen all sorts of dogs come into the classes. I will stand by my opinion of prong collars, my mother (vet tech) and my vet have the same opinion. Prong collars are no match for a obedience class and a well trained HUMAN!!

[DiegoDog]

Rottn mutt same with my dog. It uses just a choker now. He has downgraded because he understands me better. And Daisy it was my Trainer that put him on the prong collar. And it worked wonders. And the most important thing about an obedeince class is doing what the trainer tells you to

[DaisyJRT]

Well I am my own trainer, personally I wouldn't want a trainer that put a prong collar on my dog.

[bisquik]

Boy did this turn into a whole other debate!! Sorry, just have to put in my 2 cents. It wasa good post by Squawks, as the average pet owner is uninformed and thinks some special kind of collar will fix their woes. However, blame must be placed where blame is due--on those very uninformed owners. Every kind of "specialized" collar is intended for training and for training only. They also all come with instruction manuals on exactly what should and should not be done with the collar.
For example--I have a hunting dog, whom I plan to train to hunt. I have not begun field work yet, but the fundamentals (aka absolute obedience and listening to me over his nose) must be in place beforehand, and he is still a goofy 9 mo old puppy. I have a pinch collar, which is similar to a prong collar, only it is plastic, with rounded off tips that are designed to (duH) pinch the dog's neck when he pulls. After my dog learned "come" he was still wishy-washy in how promptly he responded. My solution: lace a 50-ft rope through his harness (so it doesn't get wrapped around his legs and take him down!) and tie it to a pinch collar around his neck. If he doesn't come when called, a gentle tug is all that's needed to remind him. No longer than 10 minute sessions at a time, treats and praise to reward a good boy, no hard tugs or reprimands, and only for behaviors that have already been trained into him. After a few sessions, he would sprint back to me when called. The key is that these specialized training tools are for REINFORCEMENT OF LEARNED BEHAVIORS ONLY. They are not tie-out collars, not my-dog-pulls-his-lead collars (with the exception of the choke chain, which can cause permanent undetected tracheal damage), and the truth is most dogs don't need them. I will also be investing an an electric collar ( a "hearing aid" as I have heard it called by someone else), and will be using that in the same way--on a low, annoying but not painful setting (that I will test on myself first), and only to reinforce what has been learned. However, it is not necessary for basic training of a house dog, but with a hunting dog, whose every instinct urges him to investigate every animal, obedience can be the difference between life and death for my dog. I am willing to take the extra, perhaps harsher measure to train my dog so that if he is duck hunting and I see an alligator in the swamp, I can call him off and know he will come. And lastly, reinforcement from a collar means he never associates me with punishment or reprimand for disobedience, and because he has never associated me with pain or punishment, he trusts me and will lie perfectly still as I pull out ticks or clean out his eyes and ears.

THe bottom line is, responsible, informed use of these training tools is of the utmost importance. If everyone who strapped a potentially harmful collar on their dog knew how to use it, I doubt vets would see so many tracheal injuries or punctured necks.

[jenn]

wow, maybe you guys should pm eachother if you have issues with eachother. Back to the prong collar I think you would really have to jerk it hard to injure a dog. I put one on Sierra after her trainer suggested it and said she was one of the most stubborn dogs he's ever worked with, After training and proper use of the prong collar she can now use a different collar and still be under control. If anyone does not agree with prongs tell us why and don't make it personal...Top Dog it takes a big person to admit to a wrong and apologize, maybe everyone who made personal attacks should do the same.