Wing Clipping

[archer]

Hi everyone,

Just want some opinions regarding wing clipping. I am really confused wether I need to clip the wings of a lovebird I am about to get. According to my friend, the lovebird is tamed already.

I don't feel comfortable clipping the wings of the bird I am about to get because I think birds are suppose to fly... but I don't want my bird hurting itself. Anyway, what do you think about it?

Thanks!

[rachelaw]

I don't clip my birds wings just because I have cats. BUT if i didn't I would because the chance on them running into a window or a wall is so high. If you dont feel comfortable with it then don't. Either way it really makes no diffrence. But if you are certian he is going to fly around it might be best. It really depends on the bird and the way he acts. So i would wait a few days after you get him to really make the decision.

[jobo2mi]

I would clip the wings if I were you. Not only could your new baby get hurt flying into a window or getting stuck behind some piece of furniture, but if the unthinkable happened and he was having a joy flight just as someone opened the door, out he could go!! I had that happen once to a much loved parakeet and I was devastated. Could not get him back and I know when he finally flew so far away I could not find him, he would not have survived long in the wild.
So now all my birds are kept clipped - and I have cats, too! My fids are just never out without my direct supervision with the cats, although they (the cats) have been trained NOT to bother the birds. They are, after all, CATS, so need the direct supervision at all times when the fids are out.
I worry more about the birds flighting out the door when someone (kids or visitors) open the door unexpectedly.
Good luck with the new baby.

[Shockadine]

I'm like you. I think birds should fly. If the bird is indeed tame, I don't see any reason for clipping. I currently have 7 fully flighted birds under my roof. A TAG a Miligold macaw and 5 green cheek conures. If you are worried about the bird getting hurt, I wouldn't worry too much if the bird already knows how to fly. If the bird is clipped and you don't want to clip it again, I suggest letting it relearn flight in a smaller area to avoid injury, because birds that have been clipped need to build their strength back up and learn to manuver well, so they can be a little clumsy in the beginning. After that, or if the bird is already flighted, I wouldn't worry to much about injury. Just use common sense. Hayley, my TAG, hasn't bumped into anything since she was learning to fly (or since she was clipped). None of them have ever gotten hurt. Hayley's like a little feathered helicopter that follows me around the house. If she's not in the air, she's on my shoulder.

Just make sure you are aware of what is going on. I lock the birds in their bedroom if I'm using the stove or need to open a door. To prevent fly aways, I think about why birds fly away. A lot of times people will say that the bird suddenly "feels free" and it's wild instincts come out and it flies away. If the bird has a strong bond with you this is extremely unlikely to be the case. These are some of the big reasons for fly aways.

The bird suddenly finds itself in a place it has never been before and panics. Fear of all the new things causes the bird to keep flying away from these scary things and the bird becomes lost. Birds also tend to ignore you completely when they are afraid, making recall training useless. This can be a big problem. All of my birds go outside either on a harness or in a secure cage, so they know the area. I make sure they are familiar with the sites and sounds outside my house and in the neighborhood. My birds are no longer afraid of seeing airplanes and cars and they know my house and the surrounding area, so there's nothing scary out there. Find a way to safely show your bird what is out there so it wouldn't be a scary surprise.

This is another problem that can cause a bird to fly away. These are the situations that often give people with flyers a bad name. A clipped bird suddenly grows out just enough feathers to take off and ends up out in a tree. Then these people say this is why we should always clip. No. This is why we should either be watching the feathers closely, or we should be making sure our bird knows how to fly. A bird that is just recovering from a clip does not have the strength or the confidence in their wings to come back to you. These birds never had to do such a thing. When they need to go somewhere they have to climb or wait for their person to come get them. Suddenly being up in a tree will more likely be a "You come up here and get me" thing, "and you better not be thinking of using something scary like a latter, or I'll go waaaay over there" This is not a huge problem with a bird in a familiar area that is a confident flyer and has a good relationship with it's owner. Definitely look into recall training if you plan to keep your bird flighted. Also encourage your bird to fly to you when you can, rather than always going to pick up the bird so that it doesn't develop that "come get me" atittude.

Treat your bird like you expect it to fly outside, and you can avoid a lot of problems. Closing doors and turning off fans ect, is just second nature to me now. I also have security doors installed on all doors to outside. I personally feel like my birds are safer being flighted, trained, and having their natural means of defense, than simply being clipped, but that's just me. If you have any specific questions, I'd be happy to help in anyway I can.

[buehler740]

My thoughts on cliping wings, if you clip the wings, they can still fly, if there is even the slitest chance they could even by accident get out, then clip them, Safety is the biggest reason for clipping the wings, birds get frightned easy , being able to fly full force could mean sudden death, if they panic and fly into the window or wall or something, clipping slows that down, they can still fly but clipped wings will slow them down and thats just enough to make them choose where to land which is a whole lot safer, they come back anyway, but with clipped wings they cant get far and thats a plus if it got out you can recover it as apposed to never seeing it again,Chris

[lemmony]

I was like that also, i didnt want to clip my birds wings because I think thayt bird should fly, but a 7 moths and still not tame then i decided to clip his wings. I have a cat but she doest try to get my bird, i guess because when he got out and we went after him the cat had him in her paws and my mom yelled at the cat to let it go and my cat has never botherd him again, even when he get on her back (though we are quick to get him off).

[Pepsidoodle]

Oh great! I am with Shockadine. I don't clip. I think it very wrong. People that clip think they are saving the bird from harmful situations. Would you cut off my arms because you think I might cut myself with a knife when I am cooking? Would you cut my legs at the ankle because you think I might slip and fall in a spot of water?

I have made the mistake of clipping my birds wings once. She was really being a brat and landing on my head. Just being horrible. I clipped her. I have never felt so bad in my life.

[Shockadine]

LOL! I agree Pepsidoodle. Those are horrible things.

I clipped Hayley when she was a little girl. You know how they say to let them learn to fly first? She got about 2 weeks and she was a exellent flyer. She was no problem at all either, I just thought that clipping was what I was supposed to do. Her only crime was becoming an accomplished flyer. Because I listened to everyone else instead of her. I didn't even feel bad about doing it...but then she took off like that confident baby I raised, followed by that confusion and fear I saw when she didn't make it. I don't think I ever felt so horrible in my life. I personally can't stand to see a bird that climbs and walks all day (mostly stands). And while other people think it's cute when their bird holds their wings out and leans forward because it really wants you, but can't get there, I think it's just sad and kind of sick. Parrots were meant to fly, and I truely believe that many of the behavioral problems we see today are related to the inability to fly.

Everything about a bird was designed for flight. It's a birds natural means of defense. People can argue that birds in captivity don't have to worry about the things wild birds do. Maybe your bird doesn't have any predators in your home, BUT remember your bird is still a wild animal and your bird does not know that. Ever seen a bird growl or get scared or tense over something in your house. Say the vacuum. Hayley is horrified of the vacuum. She always was. As a clipped bird, she would hide in her cage and lean halfway back, growling her head off until the vacuum left. You and I know the vacuum is no threat, but she really thought her life was on the line, and she had no way out.

Imagine you are shopping at the grocery store, and a man walks in with a gun. What would you likely do? Naturally, having no way to defeat a gun, you would probably try to escape or hide. You flee to escape the threat. Now put yourself in that same situation, but this time your legs are tied to the floor. Imagine the feeling, knowing you can't get away if that guy comes to you. Now imagine that happening every couple weeks all your life. Would you be mentally stable?

Hayley has since become strong, confident flyer. If I vacuum in the same room as her now, she will likely just fly downstairs to her playgym. She didn't fear for her life. She perceived the vacuum as a threat, and used her natural means of defense- removal from the situation. After that she's fine. I usually find her down there eating or trying to figure out how to make water come out of the sink. I can't imagine the damaging effects of being really scared and knowing you have no control over the situation, ever.

Birds do a lot of flying in the wild. They fly to find food, evade predators, etc. It's foolish to think that just because they don't have to do these things in your living room, that flight is not important to them anymore. It is also their main means of exercise, and travel. Climbing around the cage and the couch all day, does not come close at all to the exercise a bird gets in flight for just a few minutes.

To me, clipping is taking away their sense of control over themselves. I want my birds to come to me and interact with me because they want to, not because they overly depend on me for survival.

[Squawksx3]

I clip wings.... always have and always will :D . I've heard of too many horror stories about birds flying away... even well trained birds get spooked, scared and confused to the point they take off to never be seen again. All birds still have wild in them, but because we've domesticated them (regular feedings in temperate controlled environment) most are not equipped to survive in the wild or handle the harsh weather of mother nature or its preditors. And because we choose to keep a caged bird.. we are responsible for their safety and welfare. In a perfect world... birds would not be domesticated/caged pets and would be flying free as God intended. What I wouldnt give to set ours free to fly the blue skies... and why I am sooooooo against breeding birds in captivity. We did it... we need to take responsibility. Our birds go outside to bask in the sunshine and fresh air regularly .. therefore, wings are clipped. I dont believe in man-made restraints... birds were not meant to be tethered/leashed and feel its more cruel than clipping wings. Just my personal opinion. ;)

[Shockadine]

We all have the rights to our opinions, and that's fine. I'm not trying to start anything, but wing clipping is also a man-made restraint. I can't think of a single situation where a bird would be clipped in the wild. Birds get used to harnesses. It doesn't bother Hayley anymore. She goes out and acts like herself, and does her thing. Don't you walk your dogs? Is putting them on a leash cruel?

[Squawksx3]

We all have the rights to our opinions, and that's fine. I'm not trying to start anything, but wing clipping is also a man-made restraint. I can't think of a single situation where a bird would be clipped in the wild. Birds get used to harnesses. It doesn't bother Hayley anymore. She goes out and acts like herself, and does her thing. Don't you walk your dogs? Is putting them on a leash cruel?

You are right, and we all have the right to our own opinions... but I personally do not like to be labeled as "lazy and irresponsible" because I clip my birds wings. I also cannot think of a single situation where birds in the wild are restrained with harnesses, have you?. You also have stated that unclipped birds are healthier than clipped ones.. I would like to see the documented proof to back up your statements. I have never lost a bird to death nor have they ever been lost to flight. Can you say the same?. I almost lost one to a fly away, but didnt. Lets put the blame where the blame lies.. with the breeders. Birds were meant to be free and to fly... yet people keep breeding them into captivity and condemning them to a forever caged life... why is that?. My birds are not bothered by wing clipping and are healthy, happy birds. They are not afraid of things like vacuums, cars or airplanes. To compare chopping off legs and arms of humans to wing clipping is rediculous to say the least. Whats my dog and leash walks have to do with it?. You have a right to your opinion.... but when you verbally attack and downgrade someone for something like wing clipping... you are over stepping your bounderies.. adn I take this personally. Wasnt it you that made a comment in the dog section about innapropriate postings?..... and yet you post here how horrible, lazy and irresponsible we are.. because we feel its right and for the safety and well being of our birds. Who are you to condemn others. Yes, I am taking your comments personally. Do not tell me how to care for my birds and whats right for them... thats my dept thank you.

[JustJo]

I probably shouldn't get into this debate because I do not have birds but am trying to learn as much as possible about them. I do want to have a bird someday but am not going to do it until I am fully prepared. I am confused on this particular subject. I do not see where clipping wings can be put in the same category as the inhumane practices of docking, cropping, amubulatory amputation (i.e arms and legs), or declawing. From my understanding, wing clipping is a temporary and not a permanent thing. Feathers grow back. If an experienced person or vet is doing it, there is no pain involved since, once a feather is matured, it is basically a dead structure with no nerves, veins, or arteries. Are clipped birds less healthy or happy than non-clipped birds? If so, where is the data to show this? My grandmother always kept her birds clipped and they lived long and healthy lives and seemed very happy considering they were in captivity. Let's face it...clipped or not clipped, birds would all much rather be free and not in someone's house. Logically, and not being a bird owner, how many birds can really and reliably be trained to recall if they get loose? There are not even that many dogs that can be 100% reliably recalled. I see ads in the paper all the time for "lost birds". How did they get lost? I think there is much to learn about birds and these issues and I would love to see some real studies.

[Magnum]

I would like to know what the risks are in a bird that is properly clipped, then I would like to also know the risks in having a bird that is not clipped.

[Squawksx3]

There is no fail safe or reliable callback training Jo. Even experts/professionals that have trained and dealt with birds for years lose them. I read once where a professional was out free flying his bird and he watched a preditory bird snatch his bird in mid air and carry it off. Others have had their birds just fly away. Thats a risk I'm not willing to take. Clipping wings is like trimming toe nails.. there is no pain and the feathers do grow back.

Here's a few sites with lost bird ads.. there are so many and some of the ads just break my heart

http://www.birdsnways.com/birds/blost.htm

http://www.birdhotline.com/lostdir.htm

http://www.birdmart.com/classifieds/lost/

http://www.avianwelfare.org/links/lostfound.htm

Granted... birds that have been wing clipped have flown off. Its up to every individual to make their own decisions. My mom had a 'tiel and she loved that bird. He was free flighted and loved flying around the house and to her shoulder... until someone left the door open. He flew out and she never saw him again. She searched for months. She will never have another bird.

There are risks no matter what you do Mags. Every person needs to do whats best for them and their situation. I wouldnt have my birds if they weren't already in captivity and were in bad/abusive situations. I will never buy any animal from a breeder.... just try to pick up the pieces of broken lives and do the best I can.

[Shockadine]

Everytime this topic comes up people come up with all kinds of things I don't believe, and I've been told many times that my ways are cruel or irresponsible. I leave it at that. They have their opinion and I have mine. I am mostly debating for the people that are undecided on what they want to do, which is what I thought this thread was about. I am not attacking those who believe differently from me. I'm debating with them, so others can hear the positives and negatives of both sides. Since the majority is on the side of clipping, many times there would be no one defending the opposite side. Flight is something I'm very passionate about. I used to clip because all my life I only heard one side of the story. Since I was maybe 6 years old, I wanted to become a falconer. I was absolutely amazed that these people could have a bird fly outdoors, hunt, and come home with them at the end of the day. I wondered why parrots couldn't be trained to do similar things. I stumbled on the free flight group by accident one day, and was absolutely shocked that there were people doing this with parrots (well except for the hunting part lol). That was the start in my research for keeping flighted parrots (and believe me that's not easy.)

My point is that flight has always been a passion of mine, and the reason I stand so strong in these debates is not meant to offend, it's not meant to attack, it's not even meant to change anyone's mind, but to possibly reach someone else like me that simply never really thought about why they clip.

That's great that your birds are happy and healthy. That's what we all like to hear. If you are comfortable with your method, and your birds are living a good life, do what you do. I've seen your pictures of your birds and they always seem to be having a great time and they look great. You do things for your birds that I know many people will not take the time to do, and you do it for their well being, I know. I'm aware that flight isn't the cure all, make everything happy and wonderful for everyone, solution. That would be a ludacrious belief. I have personally seen flight positively affect the attitude of birds, and then there are some flighted birds that are still not treated right, and it doesn't really do them much good. What I'm trying to say is, I don't view all clippers as bad people, and I don't view all flyers as the greatest. You are nowhere near my bad list. If I was attacking anyone, rest assured you were far from being one of them. I'm not just saying that because I feel like I have to either. There is so much I try to cover that I don't always credit other responsible owners on the flip side of the issue. For that I will state it now. There ARE responsible bird owners that clip, and irresponsible ones that don't. It is simply something I found beneficial in my own flock, and for those that don't know what they want to do, they have some info about the other side of the story. No intent to offend.;)

[Magnum]

As with other Clipping threads, I have read them in their entirety and still don't understand why it is such a horrible thing to do. I can understand giving the pros and cons to each side, but stating it's a natural thing for them to do is not enough to substantiate the risks involved. Clipping their wings doesn't even come close to being compared to the amputation of limbs or having a gun pointed at a person. These type statments make the educational aspect of this topic far fetched and silly. I want to do the best for my rescue birds (one is clipped, the other is fully flighted), but freeing them where they should be {Africa} is not within my funds right now......so come on lottery.....lol.

Generalizing that all birds should be fully flighted will only result in more birds getting out and having to fend for themselves, and that is not helping those birds brought into this world for the wrong reasons to begin with. Educating on a public forum opens the educator to being responsible for what they say and how it will effect the educated. Simply stating a belief can be misconstrued and used incorrectly by any reader, thus the bird, dog, cat, or what ever the pet may be will suffer the consequences. I would not want that on my shoulders, and I certainly wouldn't pass the buck by saying it's the readers fault for not doing their research further. Coming across as a person who may know a lot about a subject can mislead a reader into possibly doing the wrong thing, so choosing to educate on a public forum has it's responsiblities.

[Squawksx3]

Thank you Jaylene. I dont see where anyone gets off saying your ways are cruel or irresponsible... I just dont believe in tethering or restraining a bird... but that my personal opinion;) . I think its wonderful that you have researched, worked hard and are passionate about your birds being flighted.. and its working for you. I also am passionate and you dont know how many times I want to cry and wish circumstances were better for these animals. It hits hard with me when someone talks about how my ways are terrible, cruel and mean. I know we all love our animals and want to do whats best for them. Debating is great..sharing your experiences and the way you do things is wonderful. I just have a hard time when comments are made that its a bad thing if things aren't done a certain way. Throw your beliefs, experiences and thoughts out there for everyone to hear and let them make their own decisions and conclusions. The way you posted prior on this thread... if I didnt know better ... I would think I was a horrible person if I didnt free flight my birds. If someone decides to free flight their bird based on this thread or anything posted on this board, without doing their research and knowing what they're doing and getting into could end up in disaster. Magnum said exactly what I was thinking in her last post. Give your opinions on the pro's & cons ... without judgement and let people decide for themselves. Many people do not know how much research, time and work you have put into your birds... and that its not an easy thing to do. We have had this debate before.. and it did get heated LOL... and it'll probably happen again, which is ok...thats how we learn, I just dont want people to think they're being judged on their decisions and what they think is best for their animals. They have to make that decision themselves with the information they have. :)

[Shockadine]

I'd also love to see these birds be free. I agree that a decision shouldn't be made on this thread alone. Definitely research research research! I'm still researching a couple years later.

There are few actual studies done. I'm hoping to get some further research done on the topic. My friend is helping me find a way to put them together through a credible source. It's a matter of actually finding someone else interested enough to check some of these things out.

I also must add, that I do not believe that clipping is equivalent to cutting a dogs legs off. That would be more like if we cut their wings off. I can't find an equivalent for dogs. I often use tying as an example because it is also a painless, temporary thing, but by no means is clipping like hacking off limps.

I do believe I have a couple sites that have found some physical and mental benefits to flight. I will look through my favorites and probably post the links tomorrow as I haven't cleaned out my favorites in a couple years, and I have a bad habit of not renaming the things in my favorites, or naming them something that totally doesn't help me. Like "favorite" and ")" and "do not buy". I have like hundreds like this, so be patient with me lol.

[buehler740]

Well, all you have to do is watch an indoor bird accidently get out and find it dead, ripped to peices because it has no concept of how to survive in the wild, ever seen smaller birds attack bigger birds in flight? ripping the feathers out in flight?8 sparrows ganged up on it an ripped the feathers til he fell, then dive bombed it, poking holes in it, tame birds are non suspecting of the dangers, their trusting, their gaurd in down, thats how my bird got killed, accidently got out I had no way of catching it, with clipped wings they can still fly, they cant fly if there dead,Chris

[Squawksx3]

Oh Chris.. Im so sorry :( . I know my mom still lives with the heartbreak and guilt of her bird flying out the open sliding glass door. She's said numerous times she should've been more careful.. and that its her fault. She never found hers.

I would love to see the studies Jaylene.... and sites on free flight. Our ultimate dream is to build a huge indoor/outdoor aviary so that ours have enough room to be flighted... and make it as close to their natural habitat as possible... that would be so kewl!. BUT... Im standing in line behind mags to win the lotto LOL. :D

[buehler740]

an indoor/outdoor avery would be perfect,the only reason I clipped wings was for their safety, it cuts down the speed, and its not just accidently getting out, it could be flying full speed into a mirror, because to them its more room they dont understand it glass, the reflection of more room is deadly, I had one break its neck flying into a mirror, and have seen outdoor birds fly full force into windows and glass doors, with the wing clipping it slows them down but they can still fly but if they get out you can catch them and they might only hit glass half as hard and come out with just a bump on the head or knocked out for a short time, I'll be the first to admit that birds and animals should be natural as they are but their safty depends on clipping, and that makes their muscles stronger anyway, these trageties are what convinced me that clipping the wings correctly is nessary, I'm waiting to win the lottery to, LOL Chris

[Shockadine]

Ok, I haven't been on the computer much lately. It's been crazy over here the past couple days. I still haven't been through all my crazy favorites. The stuff I have is mostly science based stuff. I haven't been through everything, but this one is pretty interesting I think. It talks about exercise and flight.

http://www.holisticbirds.com/hbn04/spring04/fitnessflight.htm

I've been kind of busy, so I'll put up some stuff about free flight and stuff later, hopefully today.

I'm hoping to actually have something like that built one day. It's been a dream. My mom has that 40 acres in Arizona and she said she didn't care if we split it since even half is more room than we need. We had an estimate once for a house up there that would be bigger than the one I'm in and it would only cost 2/3 of what this house is worth. Which would leave me with quite a bit left to build something like that. I'd like to have something built that's indoor and outdoor on a couple acres. I want to finish college and stuff though before I move, so it will be a couple years. If I hit the lotto though, I'll have aviaries built for all of you. It would be awesome to have something like that.

I really do understand some of your concerns. I have personally never had a problem teaching my birds about windows and mirrors, but I know it has happened to people. I'm totally with Squawksx3 though on the thought that birds should go outside, so if you don't like harnesses or your bird doesn't like harnesses, I sympathize a bit. I think it would be a little scary myself to take a unrestrained clipped bird outside, but maybe it's different when you don't live in a windy city.

Though if you think about it, there are going to be dangers no matter what you do. A flighted bird maybe able to get into danger a clipped bird can't, but a clipped bird can't get out of some of the dangers a flighted bird can.

[Squawksx3]

Great site!.. I want that aviary in the pic!!!!!!! LOL. What a bittersweet story about Max. I do believe flying is healthier and they get the exercise they need. We are constantly encouraging our birds to flap their wings.. we play lots of games where they flap and create wind storms. I know its nothing close to flying but it does help and they get exercise to keep their wings strong. We also regulate their fat intake and limit them on nuts and seeds since they're so high in fat. Thanks for the link Jaylene... I'd give my right arm to have an aviary like that. ;)