Strange behaviour or not??

[nutski]

Hello all,

My first post to the boards and straight in with a question that I hope some may have an answer for me. Well thanks in advance.

Q, I have a 13 week border collie and she can be quite gentle, loving and loyal, yet when it comes to toilet time she turns aggresive. Yep taking her for a walk is a nightmare cause when she needs to go to the toilet she begs to go home. She will start nipping, jumping up or just refusing to move. Then when we did stick it out and she went she acted as though she had done something naughty?? Even with lots of praise she still felt she had done something wrong.

Also when at home she takes a long time to go and then she gets discomfort and either gets very aggresive (top lip curled and hard mouthing, snapping) or just keeps running around me not wanting to be caught. Then when she has been caught she rolls over and refuses to be picked up. This in fact makes her biting harder and more determained.

We intend to get her on the naxt available puppy training class to help with her hyper intelligence as we call it. But how can we get her over this stage of biting when she feels the need for the toilet????

Many thanks in advance.

Kev :)

[PatchO'Pits]

Has she been checked out by your vet? Has she been wormed? Is her stool normal? Does she act strangely at any other times?


How long have you had her?

[Mutt Manners]

I would agree with Patch, again. :) I would first check with you vet to be sure she is healthy and then work on the behavior.

I'm not sure if you have ever had this breed before or know much about them. They are HIGHLY active and have a big work drive and need. Compound that with the fact that she's a puppy and you have a difficult and very active puppy that needs a strict excerise program daily. Nipping at you is a normal reaction for a border collie. Sounds to me like the first thing you should do is visit the vet and after that get into a training class and establish that you are alpha and learn how to redirect her when she is misbehaving.

Julie

[Codykins]

I have two suggestions:

1. Have her checked out by a Veterinarian and rule out any medical issues BEFORE anything else.

2. Don't just hire a trainer be sure that you hire a trainer/behaviorist that is certified (be sure they are certified in both, there are a lot of quacks out there).

From being a dog owner all my life I know basic "obedience" teaching - however, behavior modicfiation is a whole other ball of wax. They are two very different things! Quirky problems like what you have discribed need someone who know's how to teach you, how to train the puppy. "Behavior modification" and "obedience training" are very different. A trainer does not always know behavior modification and visa/versa.

Good luck

[nutski]

Thankyou all that have replied so quickly, we took missy to the vets the day after we got her for a check up where upon the vet described her as a little scrawny but cute. So with the Vets advice we upped her food intake. The following 2 weeks became a poop scoop nightmare. Finally it was time to take her back for her first injections and worming.

Now a further 3 weeks on and her injections completed 2 weeks ago, she is enjoying growing up apart from the times mentioned in the first post. The vet has checked her out fully and missy actually enjoys going to the vet to be in her eyes fussed over by the nurses there and even stranger is that she loves the weighing scales. I can honestly say she has to be weighed at least 3 times for her to get it out of her system.

I have had Border's before but normally from the 3yrs of age up. So this is our first big adventure with a Border pup.

We constantly keep her active and allow her the quiet moments she needs when now she nows she can go off into another room to keep cool or just climb in her crate when she wants a nap. The games we play with her are all those that test her intelligence rather than strength. She understands the difference beween a no and a NO.

But as I say its this problem around toilet time that is difficult. She used to go straight after food, after play, after a drink, in fact like a baby anytime she felt the need. Now she comes and asks to go out most of the time that she did on her own. The problem is when we do go out.

I'll explain it in more detail.

Toilet time is out into the garden where she has designated her space for the toilet. Door is shut behind us and its a walk straight to the area. She sniffs, circles sniffs then goes for it.

Or sometimes

She gets so wrapped up in play that when she needs to go she decides not to. Then as with a child you notice they are uncomfortable and agitated as with Missy, she gets grumpy and nippy. She refuses to be picked up almost snapping with curled lip but never growls and she always goes onto her back in a submissive way and will not allow you to try and pick her up to take her outside. If left she will go to the toilet on her own but normally wherever it decides to come out.

Normal walks are great if she has been to the toilet beforehand but if not and she decides she wants to go, first she stops and turns around and wants to go back. Sometimes this is not pratical though so with persistance we carry on. Next you can expect her to jump up and try and push you in the direction she wants you to go. If still she knows your not heading back home its the Nip on the legs. She just will not go to the toilet if needed on a walk. The times we have stuck it out and she has had to go this is where she acts as though she has been naughty and comes to you for forgivness?? We praise her for going and then as responsible wners clean it up before carrying on with the walk but for Missy its too late. She continues the walk as though she has been naughty and just plods along even with encouragement.

I totally agree that training will help with her intellegence and obedience and will help us too. But its her behaviour thats in question.

She loves children, enjoys meeting people and thinks cars are to be herded. Apart from this she is a happy, healthy and loving pup.

Thanks once again,

Kev

[Mutt Manners]

Hi Kev -

What you are describing is contridicting normal canine behavior. A submissive dog will not lie on it's back in a submissive position and then bear her teeth or curl the lip in an agressive way. I have never heard of the type of behavior you are describing. With a pup that old your first step needs to be to take her to an obedience class and establish yourself and other human family members as the alpha in the pack. Right now she is trying to determine who is going to run the pack and that's suppose to be you. Once you have established that then you should be able to tell her NO and she should respect you and stop the unwanted behavior. Without seeing this firt hand it's difficult to determine what is happening with her behavior. I would also get a squirt bottle and fill it with water. Spray her in the face and tell her no when she exhibits a behavior you dont like such as nipping. Take the squirt bottle with you on the walks and let her know the nipping is not allowed.

As for the feeling naughty after going potty in a place other then her own yard, I can't explain that one.

Codykins is correct. There are a bunch of trainers out there that are not educated in canine behavior and really only know how to train in obedience. I have studied canine behavior and wolves behavior for about 5 years now. You should know I am not aware of an certification or state licensing boards for obedience trainer or behaviorists. There are a few schools out there who give certificates for completion of an apprenticeship, but that does not make them an expert. I would look for a trainer that has also studied behavior. Call your local shelter they usually have a few good contacts for people.

Good luck.

Julie

[Codykins]

We discussed something similar with our trainer/behaviorist for our Pug. She doesn't bite or act shy but she takes forever........... to finally go potty. She smells and smells and walk around and walks around. she squats and then decides NOPE, don't like this spot. And starts all over again, very frustrating. The trainer suggests that we limit her smelling, by pulling up on the leash and distracting that behavior. However, the instruction to changing her behavior is to do the following.

Run her to the spot she needs to potty in, be excited and happy. (I should also add that we are working to give them a specific spot to potty in instead of all over the yard).

Let her minimally smell around and give her a time limit to go. If she doesn't, we bring her back in to the house, crate her, and do it again in a half an hour. Once she does her business and appears done, we are to remove her from the area immediately.

We have only been working with our Pug for over a week, and it starting to help. She does not dilly dally as much.

[nutski]

Many thanks all, I am sure I have got my work cut out for me for many a month to come yet. BUT I have never regretted taking a pup and so far the experience has been very enjoyable. Each day brings with it new suprises and things to learn for both of us.

I am sure I will now be asking questions more often. Once again many thanks.

KevP

[PatchO'Pits]

Many thanks all, I am sure I have got my work cut out for me for many a month to come yet. BUT I have never regretted taking a pup and so far the experience has been very enjoyable. Each day brings with it new suprises and things to learn for both of us.

I am sure I will now be asking questions more often. Once again many thanks.

KevP
My oldest didn't like going to the bathroom out of her own yard either at first but didn't exhibit the other behaviors. Great advice was already posted and you seem to be on the right track. Be patient , loving and consitent with whatever thetrainer tells you to do and keep us posted on the progress. Puppies are always a learning experience as no too are ever quite alike!

Enjoy! The grow way tooooo fast!

Get out some of her energy and come play in our online puppy agility class at www.apbt.info
just sign in and start the lessons.
It is by no means an answer to your behavior issue with the potty thing, but will help you a great deal in the long run and a lot of fun. :)

[Codykins]

Hi Kev -

What you are describing is contridicting normal canine behavior. A submissive dog will not lie on it's back in a submissive position and then bear her teeth or curl the lip in an agressive way. I have never heard of the type of behavior you are describing. With a pup that old your first step needs to be to take her to an obedience class and establish yourself and other human family members as the alpha in the pack. Right now she is trying to determine who is going to run the pack and that's suppose to be you. Once you have established that then you should be able to tell her NO and she should respect you and stop the unwanted behavior. Without seeing this firt hand it's difficult to determine what is happening with her behavior. I would also get a squirt bottle and fill it with water. Spray her in the face and tell her no when she exhibits a behavior you dont like such as nipping. Take the squirt bottle with you on the walks and let her know the nipping is not allowed.

As for the feeling naughty after going potty in a place other then her own yard, I can't explain that one.

Codykins is correct. There are a bunch of trainers out there that are not educated in canine behavior and really only know how to train in obedience. I have studied canine behavior and wolves behavior for about 5 years now. You should know I am not aware of an certification or state licensing boards for obedience trainer or behaviorists. There are a few schools out there who give certificates for completion of an apprenticeship, but that does not make them an expert. I would look for a trainer that has also studied behavior. Call your local shelter they usually have a few good contacts for people.

Good luck.

Julie


Mutt is correct that there is no state licensing boards, however the U.S. Government and its court system only except "expert testimony" on dog behavior if they are certified by the ABS. Animal behavior is a specialized field of scientific study. In order to become a certified applied animal behaviorist, an individual must have specialized training in behavior problems in companion animals. The Animal Behavior Society (ABS) grants certification to behaviorists who are academically trained, have experience in the field and meet the ethical standards of the ABS. People who’ve worked with or trained animals for many years, aren’t animal behaviorists unless they’ve received specialized academic training.